Author Topic: High Altitude Jetting--5000' (1,500m+) and above  (Read 14482 times)

Offline Mettler1

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Re: High Altitude Jetting--5000' (1,500m+) and above
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2011, 05:02:36 pm »
I've tried to not reply to your comments but I just can't keep from it. I'm not looking to "cash in on his time and research", I'm not looking "to save a buck."
I'm not saying that Steve owes me anything. I am saying that if I purchase parts from someone the parts should not have numbers and markings ground off of them.
I don't claim to be God's gift to carb tuning but I do know that it's important keep track of where you started and what you do at each step you take. Knowing the size of the jets you install in your carbs is the only way you stand a chance of correcting any problems you may have and or any improvements you may think are needed. Would you be happy if your bike came from the factory with the numbers ground off of the jets? If the bike came with the numbers on the spark plugs obliterated? No you wouldn't because you would not have a baseline to make any kind of decision on where to go if you needed to go richer, leaner, hotter and or colder.
I'm sure Steve's kit is a very good product, I've read the reviews and many are quite happy with it. I've also read many reviews in the past about how good Metzler 880 tires are on the C-10. I like to know exactly what I'm installing in or on my bike so if it doesn't work to my satisfaction or if I feel I can make an improvement I do have a baseline. I guess it comes down to the fact I like to know where I'm at, so I have a chance of finding my way out on my own without having to ask someone else to come hold my hand and lead me in the proper direction. YMMV
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: High Altitude Jetting--5000' (1,500m+) and above
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2011, 11:53:56 pm »
I like to know where I'm at, so I have a chance of finding my way out on my own without having to ask someone else to come hold my hand and lead me in the proper direction.
Please take my hand so that I may lead you in the proper direction. No you  do not have to ask but you surely need  help to see the light. With Steve's Jet Kit you have reached your final destination, Nirvana, Shangra La or in your language you have now reached the 'End Point'.  No longer will you have to Start Again with yet another Starting Point   because from now on  all you have to do  (rarely  needed after doing it once) is to simply increase or decrease the amount of foam blocking the intake area.
We do appreciate your input but in this case you are not correct in asking some one to give up all their hard a work just because you think you need a starting point  each time you make a change.  If you really need a starting point then remove it and put it back to where you started and then look really really close at where the numbers are ground off and you can clearly see the teeny tiny letters engraved there-  R.I.P. 

Let us pray this is the end of this thread. Please.
If you still have fuel in the tank, you are not lost yet
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: High Altitude Jetting--5000' (1,500m+) and above
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2011, 09:00:49 am »
Ok, getting back to my old note/question:  :o :o

Original thought/question;
Soo,,,, my thought is (a person might be able to jett extra lean for Hi Altitude and add restricter in the airbox when you go down to the flatlands....)
My thinking is this might give you the best of both worlds..
Is this a viable solution?
 By the way, Steve join in with your thoughts.
    Have you already built a 2 min kit for altitude and do you recommend changing restriction if you use that kit at lower altuitudes?


RESTATEMENT
My question is, can a person jett extra lean for high altitudes and restrict intake when you go down in altitude?
                         Steve, do you offer a special 2 minute kit for the guys that live up high?
                                    do you feel your existing kit will work as it is, and simply change the size of the restriction
                                       for different altitudes?
                          what do the rest of you think about this idea?

Ride safe, Ted

NOTE: On another discussion Jim Snyder said:
Heres where my adjustable intake plate would come in handy in conjunction with Steve's 2 min jetting.
If you knew where to set the air intake at high altitude and where to set it for lower ones, you could
mark the plate with a sharpie and simply move it to the desired location needed for the specific altitude.

Sounds like it will work to me!! (Ted)

Offline Outback_Jon

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Re: High Altitude Jetting--5000' (1,500m+) and above
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2011, 04:16:02 pm »
That gives me an idea for an overly complicated and undoubtedly expensive invention.  A barometrically adjusted 2-minute-mod block-off plate.   :o  That would even re-tune the engine as the weather changes for optimal power and efficiency.  Riding through a hurricane?  No problem, even when you get through the eye wall.  A good old New England Nor'Easter?  No problem.  Alberta Clippers?  No problem.   ;D
"Outback Jon" Gould *** South Cairo, NY *** COG #9506 *** 2006 C10 "Blueline" *** CDA #0157

Offline AZBiker

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Re: High Altitude Jetting--5000' (1,500m+) and above
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2011, 06:18:55 pm »
That gives me an idea for an overly complicated and undoubtedly expensive invention.  A barometrically adjusted 2-minute-mod block-off plate.   :o  That would even re-tune the engine as the weather changes for optimal power and efficiency.  Riding through a hurricane?  No problem, even when you get through the eye wall.  A good old New England Nor'Easter?  No problem.  Alberta Clippers?  No problem.   ;D

...and now we're in "just fit the damn thing with aftermarket FI" territory.   ;D

I'm going to go with a kit from SISF.

Maybe the reason that he grinds off the jet number is that once he modifies it, it's no longer that number.  If you start with a 120 and machine it, it's no longer a 120.  To keep the stock numbering on that jet is disingenuous, no?

I can't wait to have a bike that's not as rich as a Wall Street banker.

rubber side down,

Derek
93 Cali black & red

Offline Outback_Jon

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Re: High Altitude Jetting--5000' (1,500m+) and above
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2011, 07:46:50 pm »
...and now we're in "just fit the damn thing with aftermarket FI" territory.   ;D

Let's see.  Mason jar, rubber band, balloon, and then an extremely complicated linkage to make that little bit of movement adjust the block-off.  As long as you don't have an Audiovox cruise control installed, the Mason jar can go behind the side panel.   ;D
"Outback Jon" Gould *** South Cairo, NY *** COG #9506 *** 2006 C10 "Blueline" *** CDA #0157

Offline AZBiker

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Re: High Altitude Jetting--5000' (1,500m+) and above
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2011, 08:19:40 pm »
Let's see.  Mason jar, rubber band, balloon, and then an extremely complicated linkage to make that little bit of movement adjust the block-off.  As long as you don't have an Audiovox cruise control installed, the Mason jar can go behind the side panel.   ;D

No cruise control, and no Cali emissions stuff either pretty soon.
rubber side down,

Derek
93 Cali black & red

Offline jim snyder

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Re: High Altitude Jetting--5000' (1,500m+) and above
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2011, 08:38:45 pm »
Steve has spent hundreds of hours and probably thousands of $$$ perfecting the 2 min mod kit. And what was the result? It works, plain and simple. There is no need for numbers on anything, you DO NOT NEED TO CHANGE THE JETS EVER !!! You simply modify the amount of air going into the airbox to fit your particular application. Once the airflow is properly regulated your bike will respond better than it ever has.
I like Steve have pulled carbs and exhausts off of bikes more times than I care to remember. If I never have to pull Connie's carbs off again it will be too soon. I built an adjustable airbox intake plate to make my adjustments easier. Once I found the "sweet spot" she runs better than she ever has. And as far as Dyno jet kits are concerned, I have installed atleast 25 of them for customers over the years, and very few of them were ever right on the 1st, or 2nd, or 3rd time the carbs were pulled and re-installed. Steve's kit was dead on the first time, but that was due to his hard work and dedication to get it right before putting it on the market. I am proud to have been one of Steve's test pilots for his 7th Gear unit, and a Junior test pilot on the new 2 min mod. Bottom line is it works, so buy it. !!!   
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Offline AZBiker

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Re: High Altitude Jetting--5000' (1,500m+) and above
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2011, 01:58:41 am »
If I was going to go the semi-custom kit route, I would be installing a Factory Pro kit, not DynoJunk anyway.  Not a big fan of drilling out a bazillion dollars worth of carb slides.
rubber side down,

Derek
93 Cali black & red

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: High Altitude Jetting--5000' (1,500m+) and above
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2011, 05:40:56 am »
  Since the thread still appears to have some traction, let me throw some carb tuning thoughts in here.

   First, when considering carb tuning, it's kind of like taking a road trip; you can take lots of different routes to get to the same place. Some routes may be more efficient, some may be more fun, some routes seem to go in different directions, but in the end are about the same, time and mileage-wise. Carb tuning is like that; lots of ways to get to where your going.

   When carbs are properly tuned, they're running properly at all throttle positions and rpms. Tuning isn't targeted to make one rpm range better at the risk of making another worse, unless you're racing and the lower rpms just don't matter.

  Economy and good carburetion generally go together. It's hard to get though. Easy to just jet rich and get good transitions but lose economy. I don't do that with my jetting.

   Drilling holes in slides just lets the slides repond more quickly up, but also down. The result can be jumpy slides. I opted to not do that with my kits, as vibration on a connie is always an issue, and I wanted smooth operation.

  The foam block - while we've already discussed the tuning flexibility afforded by changing the air rather than changing the jets, the REAL reason for the foam block was to increase the low end and midrange power. Basically the cams / ports for the zg1000 are to big, and there tends to be alot of reversion pulses back through the carbs at lower rpms. This creates multiple carburetion, and lessens available torque because less charge is trapped in the cylinder. Blocking the intake suppresses these pulses and keeps the cylinders filled better.

  While some(one) may point to the little sticker on the airbox that says "never let anything obstruct the airbox inlet" and say it's "out of bounds" for me to violate that warning, let me offer this - I have dyno charts of Shoodaben making 117 hp with 1/2 of the airbox intake blocked. The point is that a stock connie, in the 89 hp range, will never be air starved by blocking the intake as the 2 minute mod jet kit does.

 And Azbike, I agree, the FP kits are superior to the DJ kits. I run FP needles in my 36's. The 32's (zg1000 carbs) work great with the stock needles, perfect for power and economy due to the multiple tapers, which are pretty much unheard of in the aftermarket. HTH, Steve

   

Offline Two Skies

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Re: High Altitude Jetting--5000' (1,500m+) and above
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2011, 05:24:19 pm »
If you are that worried about air starvation at higher RPM's, you can always go the 'flap route' similar to what Erik in Scandinavia did.  He essentially took a 1 gallon plastic bottle, cut out a flap, and used that to restrict the air flow on the right side.  When RPM's increase, the flap sucks/folds inward, increasing the intake area for the airbox.

Dunno how well this worked for him, but he seemed happy with his results.

I can tell you that at an altitude of 4250-ish feet, with about 1/3 of my airbox restricted with foam, that my Connie is much better behaved at lower RPMs, and has more torque.  I can actually tool around at low speeds in parking lots without worrying about 'rpm surge' as much when I nudge the throttle.  One time, I was stuck on the freeway at 0-10 MPH highway speeds, and simply used the clutch to modulate my speed, without even paying attention to the throttle.  Pre-foam, I'd have to worry about killing the bike if I wasn't careful, with the foam in place this concern went almost completely away.

And this is with the 'stock' Cali jetting!  I did take a slight MPG hit (I get mid 40's, so anything out of the ordinary, such as getting throttle happy, affects that number), but I felt it was worth it.

The only time I've noticed an issue with the foam and stock jetting is when canyon chasing at higher than the recommended speed.  At those higher altitudes, I did notice a slight lag around 7000 RPM, and removing the foam did help with that lag.  The beauty of the foam, though is (if you have the thumbscrews for your side panels), simply pop off your side panel, and remove/replace the foam.  Takes about 2 minutes to modify, and NO TOOLS!

That being said, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to use Steve's jet kits.  If you want to go another way, you are of course free to do so.  And if you can stumble on the perfect jetting for your application, that's great too.

For many of the rest of us, however, we like doing things once and getting results.  Steve has now sold dozens of jet kits to people on this forum, and pretty much everyone that has installed his kits has said 'more power, more torque, better throttle response, better fuel economy', with the caveat that 'I'm now finding myself twisting the throttle more, as I'm enjoying the new power curve waaaay too much, so my fuel economy probably could be higher if I could just control myself!'.

Some of those endorsements have come from people in my area (Colorado, Arizona, and other states at similar altitudes).  Unfortunately, with the forum conversion, we lost a few of those posts, so some of those aren't searchable now, although new endorsements have been posted since.  The 2 minute mod has been around for a couple of years now...

With all those endorsements I've read over the last several years, and knowing how open Steve has been with his research efforts with us, and the fact he still hangs with us here and gives advice all the time free of charge, for me it's a no brainer.  When I have the spare cash, it's 2 Minute Mod economy jets for me.
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: High Altitude Jetting--5000' (1,500m+) and above
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2011, 08:39:35 am »
Thank you Two Skies and Steve.
That answers a lot of the questions.

Ride safe, Ted

Offline AZBiker

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Re: High Altitude Jetting--5000' (1,500m+) and above
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2012, 01:20:41 am »
So everything's together--ended up sending my carbs out to Steve to be cleaned because I did a ****-poor job of it.

First tankful--35mpg.  Bike runs great though!

This includes a couple days of "woohoo, I got my bike back, screw the speed limit" type riding, a trip down White Spar, and commuting.

I filled it up today and decided to take out the foam block.  Not liking the way it's running with no airbox restriction.  Will try cutting the other foam block in half tomorrow to see how she runs on half restriction.
rubber side down,

Derek
93 Cali black & red

Offline Steve in Sunny Fla

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Re: High Altitude Jetting--5000' (1,500m+) and above
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2012, 05:21:56 am »
Derek - follow the info on the tips and tuning sheet about trimming the foam. Cut no more than 1/4" at a time; a 1/4" cut will change the a/f ratio appx 1 point, in other words, from 12:1 to 13:1 and so on. When you're REALLY dialing it in 1/8" makes a difference. If you just cut to much right off, you'll blow past the optimum a/f ratio, and performance and mileage will suffer. HTH, steve

Offline qman

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Re: High Altitude Jetting--5000' (1,500m+) and above
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2012, 11:39:54 am »
I'm a professional mechanic, done my own carbs and such for years and I know the value of good tuning work. I have Steves jet kit and sprocket, the bike runs better and fuel economy is very acceptable. I could have spent hours messing with it....but why? when somebody already has! And the testimonys alone on this sight speak volumes (which is why I bought his kit).  So if Steve says he has one for high alt. then why would you not use it.
Nuff said
When I opened the box and saw the jet # were missing I just laughed. Not to blame but because I know how important is is to protect your hard earned interests. If one REALLY wanted to know the size they could buy the tool that checks it. But I'm not gonna say what it is or where to get it.
Kudos Steve.