Author Topic: HF 1467  (Read 4035 times)

Offline roadkoan

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HF 1467
« on: May 18, 2011, 05:06:31 am »
Hey all!
So I don't know if you saw this:
http://www.startribune.com/politics/statelocal/121751354.html
Members of Minnesota's law enforcement establishment adamantly don't want the state's residents to be allowed to shoot first.

They ramped up their opposition on Thursday to a bill moving through the Legislature that would dramatically expand Minnesotans' ability to use deadly force in self-defense without facing prosecution

And:
http://www.twincities.com/ci_18065821?source=most_viewed
The Republican-controlled House voted 79-50 for the bill, which would broaden what's considered a "dwelling" and reverses the burden of proof in cases of self-defense from the defender to the prosecution. Dwellings would include such places as vehicles, garages and temporary residences.
In numerous committees in the House and Senate, prosecutors and police groups have overwhelmingly opposed the proposal , contending it would make it harder to prosecute some cases and would put officers in greater risk of being shot.

http://richfield.patch.com/articles/rep-slocum-shoot-first-bill-will-increase-gun-violence
Additionally, the bill would allow any permit from any other state to be valid in Minnesota, regardless of the qualifications to have a permit, background check or training requirements, directly weakening Minnesota’s permit laws.

This being an interesting case because even some who no-one would ever call anti-gun (Police) etc. are against the Bill.

Thoughts?

Do you think i deserve Ms S's stamp of approval for this post?
Post relevant.....
I say relevant because this deals with a subject we talk about on this forum, self defense and the use of deadly force.

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Offline T Cro ®

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Re: HF 1467
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2011, 05:40:23 am »
Noted that many individual street officers are in favor of expanding the publics ability to defend themselves but are fearful of being retaliated on by senor officials by supporting the expanded rights.

Most not all LEO are in favor of people having the right to defend themselves especially when properly trained; personally I don't think "everyone" has the right to carry a weapon in public unless they have shown the proper skills, and mindset to safely do so.

One of the things that it taught in self defense class is that using deadly force should be reserved in that you should give the person or persons the ability to stop and or leave before using deadly force. If I find you in my backyard will I shoot you for it? NOPE... Will I shoot you if you try to leave after I find you in my backyard? NOPE... Will I shoot you if you come at me with a gun, knife, screwdriver, or toy gun? YES... I will shoot you until you stop coming at me. The same applies for inside my home as I don't want the headache it will cause, there is nothing inside my home that can't be replaced except for the occupants. The same applies when out in public; I have no need to use deadly force on another human being unless that person is in my opinion intent on doing me or someone close to me deadly harm.

Do not think that simply because I carry a gun that I want to use a gun; that is the furthest from the truth. I hope to never use a gun on another human in my life. But don't think that I will not in order to protect and extend life. This is the way that the vast majority of gun owners think.
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Offline Pokey

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Re: HF 1467
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2011, 09:19:07 am »
I have friends who are law enforcement officers, they are 110% for "trained and experienced" CHL owners to carry as they wish. This is in the state of OHIO by the way........
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Offline timsatx

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Re: HF 1467
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2011, 10:35:12 am »
From the things I have seen, the opposition to these kinds of laws relative to the police usually comes from the establishment. The vast majority of the real police officers are for it, again based on things that I have read and video clips I have seen. I don't see how legally licensed people are more dangerous to the police putting them at risk for being shot.

I will tell you one thing, when I go to bed I take out my loaded P11, unholster it, and place it easily within reach. If someone breaks in to my house they will be shot. I do not know what their intentions are but I go by the idea that they are there to at least rob me if not hurt me or my family. Not knowing whether they only want to rob me me and not hurt me, I will take appropriate action to get them to stop. As far as I am concerned, if you smash down the door to my house at 2am I figure you are up to no good anyway.

I am curious though, who are the ones that are pro-gun that are against the bill?

Offline Rhino

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Re: HF 1467
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2011, 11:01:56 am »
From the things I have seen, the opposition to these kinds of laws relative to the police usually comes from the establishment. The vast majority of the real police officers are for it, again based on things that I have read and video clips I have seen. I don't see how legally licensed people are more dangerous to the police putting them at risk for being shot.

I will tell you one thing, when I go to bed I take out my loaded P11, unholster it, and place it easily within reach. If someone breaks in to my house they will be shot. I do not know what their intentions are but I go by the idea that they are there to at least rob me if not hurt me or my family. Not knowing whether they only want to rob me me and not hurt me, I will take appropriate action to get them to stop. As far as I am concerned, if you smash down the door to my house at 2am I figure you are up to no good anyway.

I am curious though, who are the ones that are pro-gun that are against the bill?

+1 Only for me it's a Styer M40A1

Offline Rhino

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Re: HF 1467
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2011, 11:04:02 am »
Do you think i deserve Ms S's stamp of approval for this post?

Sorry but this is pure politics and I believe this belongs in the Arena. Just my 2 cents.

Offline timsatx

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Re: HF 1467
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2011, 12:00:18 pm »
I like this one here. I don't go to the Arena and it is gun related. On the old forum we talked about some of the laws here.

Offline Miss Silvera

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Re: HF 1467
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2011, 02:04:52 pm »
Do you think i deserve Ms S's stamp of approval for this post?


You don't need my approval, but when  I see this get turned into a pi$$ing contest it will go to the Arena.

Since we probably have members here that live in that state and it does deal with self defense, I will leave it here for now.

I don't care for the way reporters do tend to one side their articles.  They make it sound like there are a bunch of gun happy folks just waiting to use force against aomeone. (as TCro mentioned this isn't the case)...it is a last act to be used in the event that someone is using or attempting to use Deadly Physical Force or by Weapon, that may warrant you to use Deadly Force to defend yourself or a third party.   We hope we never have to...

And it's MISS  not Ms.  Thank you..  (that sounded a little pi$$y , sorry)
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Offline roadkoan

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Re: HF 1467
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2011, 08:17:14 pm »
Noted that many individual street officers are in favor of expanding the publics ability to defend themselves but are fearful of being retaliated on by senor officials by supporting the expanded rights.

Now I saw this same angle in one of the articles. But for me it doesnt wash:
A: "most not all" feel one way.
B: one of the strongest Unions to support their rights.
C: No "splinter" group with a counter statement?
One of the things that it taught in self defense class is that using deadly force should be reserved in that you should give the person or persons the ability to stop and or leave before using deadly force. If I find you in my backyard will I shoot you for it? NOPE... Will I shoot you if you try to leave after I find you in my backyard? NOPE... Will I shoot you if you come at me with a gun, knife, screwdriver, or toy gun? YES... I will shoot you until you stop coming at me. The same applies for inside my home as I don't want the headache it will cause, there is nothing inside my home that can't be replaced except for the occupants. The same applies when out in public; I have no need to use deadly force on another human being unless that person is in my opinion intent on doing me or someone close to me deadly harm.

Do not think that simply because I carry a gun that I want to use a gun; that is the furthest from the truth. I hope to never use a gun on another human in my life. But don't think that I will not in order to protect and extend life. This is the way that the vast majority of gun owners think.
I totally believe you.
I also believe that most cagers are trying really hard to be good drivers, and that politicians of all sorts are generally trying to do the right thing for "The American People".
But when I go to reconcile that with the news it doesn't go so well.
Look, anyone who can field strip an M9 in under 10sec. I'm not so worried about, Its just the average competency rate I perceive in people as a whole that worries me.
Sorry if I sound a little misanthropic, I just helped my neighbor jump his car after he left the dome light on. He didn't know how to open the hood. These are the people who scare me.
So for me the question has never been all or nothing, but how to weed out the idiots mentally challenged...
I am curious though, who are the ones that are pro-gun that are against the bill?
The Chiefs of Police in both Mpls and St. Paul to name 2.
full disclosure though: the sponsor of the bill is also a Chief, although of a rather smaller town.
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Offline mikeboileau

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Re: HF 1467
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2011, 08:34:10 pm »
Is your point to be a buzzkill? Or a troll?

Offline Miss Silvera

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Re: HF 1467
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2011, 08:35:03 pm »
I think a lot of these articles are written by folks who never had to defend themselves and /or another.  Most of them sit in their gated communities worrying if the satelite is going to go out in a storm. 

As far as the "police" are concerned...for the majority they are all Anti's, partly because they think the report will be made longer if a citizen has to defend themselves. 

And..partly because they don't want to think a citizen knows more, shoots better, and is taking some of their "power" away. 

Now I know this isn't true for all LEO's, but it is true for a majority. 

The International Assocination for Chief's of Police believes that citizens should be unarmed....

I may have contributed just enough here to send this to the Arena...blame me if I do...
"Listen With Your Eyes" 
Identify, Acquire, Press, Press, Move
Wit, Grit, Courage,and Determination .....
win gunfights

Offline T Cro ®

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Re: HF 1467
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2011, 08:48:00 pm »
(QUOTE) I also believe that most cagers are trying really hard to be good drivers, and that politicians of all sorts are generally trying to do the right thing for "The American People". (END QUOTE)


Can I have some of that weed you've been smokin? Cause it must be some really good $hit!  :rotflmao:
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Offline timsatx

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Re: HF 1467
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2011, 09:17:04 pm »
Chiefs of Police in both Mpls and St. Paul to name 2.
full disclosure though: the sponsor of the bill is also a Chief, although of a rather smaller town.

See, this is what I was talking about. The Chief of police is the establishment, not the rank and file, and usually if it is in a situation that part of the rank and file are speaking in front of cameras they too are speaking from the establishment point of view. Talk to most of them off camera and it is a different story. Again, as I have seen/heard it.

You know, I just went back and read all the links. I am not sure where you saw that the Chiefs are pro-guns because I didn't see that.

Offline roadkoan

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Re: HF 1467
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2011, 04:53:09 am »
You know, I just went back and read all the links. I am not sure where you saw that the Chiefs are pro-guns because I didn't see that.
O.K. fair enough. I just generally assume that those who carry guns qualify as "Pro-gun" but I suppose that their opinions could be as nuanced as my own.[
(QUOTE) I also believe that most cagers are trying really hard to be good drivers, and that politicians of all sorts are generally trying to do the right thing for "The American People". (END QUOTE)


Can I have some of that weed you've been smokin? Cause it must be some really good $hit!  :rotflmao:
Hey T,  its the brackets you are using that keep your quotes from working, try a pair of these [] around the quote tags instead of () those.       And if you want to add an author for the quote put:  author=roadkoan after the quote tag so it reads
bracket quote space author no space equals sign nospace personsname nospace bracket   
(quote author=roadkoan) but with the other brackets
Dig?
And most important you have to close the code with a backslash before the second quote tag:
(/quote) but again with the other brackets.

As far as the other, you understand what i mean in context, correct?


             
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Offline T Cro ®

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Re: HF 1467
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2011, 05:47:57 am »
And most important you have to close the code with a backslash before the second quote tag:
(/quote) but again with the other brackets.

As far as the other, you understand what i mean in context, correct?

Dude I knows how to do quotes when I want to......

I understood your context.... I was just giving you grief!

BTW I was once a "Hippie" too!
Tony P. Crochet
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Ask me about a set of Stick Coils & Harness or Precision Shift Linkage for your C10 Concours