Author Topic: Capt. Al Haynes died today....  (Read 264 times)

Offline B.D.F.

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Capt. Al Haynes died today....
« on: August 26, 2019, 04:10:27 pm »
One of my all- time heroes, Al Haynes, died today in Seattle, WA. That in and of itself is a little surprising because he <probably> should have died 30 yrs. ago....

Alfred Clair Haynes, 57 at the time, was the PIC (pilot in command) aboard the United DC-10 that was crippled by and engine explosion and yet flew an 'unflyable' plane, alone with three other pilots, to Sioux City, Iowa where he sorta', kinda', mostly landed. It was a crash landing to be sure, with great loss of life but at the same time, he and the other three pilots saved about 2/3 of the passengers from what should have been certain death. After the tail engine exploded, wiping out the entire aircraft's hydraulics, along with all control surface control, they managed to limp the plane another 30 minutes and actually put down on a runway before careening off into a corn field. No one has ever managed to duplicate this feat in a flight simulator. But the icing on the cake was his cool, calm and measured manner in handling the situation; so much so that when cleared to land at <any> runway at Sioux City, he made the joke that follows:

"Sioux City Approach: "United Two Thirty-Two Heavy, the wind's currently three six zero at one one; three sixty at eleven. You're cleared to land on any runway."[5]
Haynes: "[laughter] Roger. [laughter] You want to be particular and make it a runway, huh?"

Which he followed with the deadly serious: "Whatever you do, keep us away from the city." Al Haynes, as well as the ATC involved, thought there was little- to- no chance of actually landing that crippled plane. But they did manage to do so and beyond the many passengers they saved, the entire cockpit crew survived. In fact, United offered Al Haynes an early retirement but he chose to return to the cockpit and finish his career with United. I very well remember way back in the early 90's when he made the national news again, this time for his last flight when retiring at the mandatory (at that time) age of 60 yrs. old.

The exact right people, in the exact right place, at a very inopportune but necessary time. For those not familiar with this incident, I would seriously suggest taking a few moments to look up the name Al Haynes and learn a little about the man and the events of that day in Iowa for which he is best known. Truly an outstanding person in my opinion.

Brian

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Offline Bob Skinner

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Re: Capt. Al Haynes died today....
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2019, 05:23:10 pm »
I was at the Sioux City airport the next morning and saw the damage.

Bob Skinner

Offline Nosmo

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Re: Capt. Al Haynes died today....
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2019, 06:32:50 pm »
Wow, I remember that crash well.  As an A&P (small aircraft) mechanic I was always interested in anything aviation related.  I was not aware that Captain Haynes lived here in Seattle.  A design that allowed one uncontained engine failure to wipe out all three hydraulic systems at once, good idea.  But I know you can't plan for everything.  For those too young to remember, here's a video of the crash.  Unbelievable that ANYONE survived.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCTrs9mKmhc
A life undreamed is a waste.  A dream unlived is a sin.

Offline fartymarty

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Re: Capt. Al Haynes died today....
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2019, 11:51:55 am »
I remember that as well. That was one hell of a response he gave to ATC. Gallows humor from the cockpit followed by the more intense "keep us away from the city".
If I recall there was a third pilot on board deadheading from place to place who came up into the cockpit and helped with the controls from the jump seat.

I haven't read it yet (it's sitting on my Kindle) but there is a book with fairly good reviews: Flight 232: A Story of Disaster and Survival

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Capt. Al Haynes died today....
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2019, 01:58:40 pm »
Yeah, actually a fourth pilot (there were three crewing the plane normally- that was back in the days of planes requiring a flight engineer) named Dennis Fitch was hitching a ride and offered his help. Al Haynes took him up on the offer and he ended up being the person who operated the throttles, effectively the only control in flying the plane that they had. He was the only one w/out a seat and of course not strapped in. He was (as they all were) injured in the landing but survived; when he woke up in the hospital the first question he asked was if the passengers survived. He was answered with a 'yes'. But when he asked if ALL of them survived, he was met with a blank stare and he immediately knew what that meant. Again, a testament IMO to all of that crew in that their highest concern was to prevent loss of life, and if that was not possible, then to minimize it to the greatest degree possible.

I think I would have cried for my mommie and ruined a perfectly good pair of underwear. :-(

I saw an interview with the air traffic controller who handled that flight and he said it was a difficult thing to talk to people, especially for so long (~30 minutes), trying to help them but 'knowing' they were all going to die. That event clearly had a very serious impact (no pun intended) on that gentleman.

The whole story is fascinating, starting off with what caused it in the first place; a particle no larger than a grain of sand, embedded in the titanium casting of the 2nd engine hub when it was manufactured. These are called 'inclusions' and are often the failure point of welds but rarely any type of bar- finished metal. Nonetheless, there was one in that hub when it was manufactured and it caused a crack to start and spread over years and thousands of hours of operation until the hub finally disintegrated due to centripetal force in normal, routine use. That plane went down due to nothing other than the luck of the draw- nothing that crew could have done, or 'not done' would have prevented that accident from happening.

And now for the opposite end of the spectrum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYX5pBihw3c   Pay particular attention to what is mentioned at 5:42- beyond all belief. The polar opposite of the United 232 crew IMO.  The utter definition of FUBAR.

Brian

I remember that as well. That was one hell of a response he gave to ATC. Gallows humor from the cockpit followed by the more intense "keep us away from the city".
If I recall there was a third pilot on board deadheading from place to place who came up into the cockpit and helped with the controls from the jump seat.

I haven't read it yet (it's sitting on my Kindle) but there is a book with fairly good reviews: Flight 232: A Story of Disaster and Survival
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Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Capt. Al Haynes died today....
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2019, 03:29:42 pm »
OH my....
as I was reading the post, it went right over my head, until I saw 232...

I have, tucked away somewhere, one of the creepiest pieces of paper you will ever see, related to that plane...

The Boarding passes from my second wife, and myself, from that exact plane, 2-1/2 weeks prior to the crash...
we were returning from a Florida trip, got re-routed into Chicago, and were transferred to 232, to Cleveland, while it was in route to somewhere east, Pa.?
The flight was a very short duration, basically straight up, then straight back down... made both of our ears explode.. almost, (no pun intended)... when we off loaded in Cleveland, and went to pick up our luggage from the carrousel... all our bags, and many others there, were covered in foamy hydraulic fluid... really pizzed me off, so i tossed them onto a carry cart, and went to the desk... to complain. When i got there they gave us the run around, and during the back and forth/phone this/phone that person there, to get some semblance of "compensation", I realized it wasn't just hydraulic fluid, but Skydrol... the smell gave it away..(I was working in the Aerospace/defense industry, for a company called Argo Tech, a division of TRW, and knew that smell, as an engineer in pumps, and ordinance; Oh that company also made Turbine Jet engine blades... Huge ones... )... they insisted it came from the "conveyor system", but I said b/s, and went directly to the FAA office in the airport, told them what I found, and told them to check that plane/not let it take off..  they said too late, it's fine, it's in the air, we'll right up the report.. I gave them samples of the fluid on paper towels, and filed a formal complaint of damages...
When we saw the crash on the news, my wife looked at me, and said... is that the same plane?.. I pulled out the boarding passes, and we both freaked out.. a week later we got calls to "come in and tell us again what you saw"... and "bring that luggage, that got ruined with you"...   Too late, we had thrown all the damaged stuff away a week prior..(I know how dangerous it was health wise, every time I was around it, I got skin rash, and coughed.. when it became a "mist" on a failed component we were testing, or a simple blown hose, we all ran.. );  but we did go in and "talk" to them..
Never heard anything after that point, and even called, and asked, and sent letters... they clammed up tight.

I frankly never bought the line given for the cause of the crash, when they said blade failure, and always felt it was an un seen problem that was pre existing..  thank goodness my company wasn't making the blades for GE.. but they did get hammered by the Gov't, for hiding "flaws" well prior to that incident.. doh.  ::)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 05:33:03 pm by MAN OF BLUES »

30 YEARS OF KAW.....

Offline fartymarty

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Re: Capt. Al Haynes died today....
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2019, 06:06:45 pm »
OH my....
as I was reading the post, it went right over my head, until I saw 232...

I have, tucked away somewhere, one of the creepiest pieces of paper you will ever see, related to that plane...

The Boarding passes from my second wife, and myself, from that exact plane, 2-1/2 weeks prior to the crash...


You realize that unless you made note of the "N" number (and it sounds like you didn't) the chances of you being on that exact plane drop considerably. Exact flight number for sure, but since individual aircraft are rotated around depending on the weather, maintenance schedules, etc. airlines don't always have the exact same aircraft on the exact same flight number day after day. I'm no United Airlines late 80s aircraft scheduling expert but I'd hazard a guess that the odds of you being on the exact same aircraft are below 50%. Then again, I'm wrong alot. ::) :-[

I frankly never bought the line given for the cause of the crash, when they said blade failure, and always felt it was an un seen problem that was pre existing.

Oh?....why?

shrapnel holes seen in Flight 232's starboard horizontal stabilizer just prior to crash landing

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Capt. Al Haynes died today....
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2019, 06:42:43 pm »
no, it was actually UIA 232, the ticket confirmed, Flight numbers do not rotate between individual "planes" as I noted. and the conversations, and aftermath, I went thru were real, and actual.
explain the same Lighted areas of the right main wing.. don't take a single photo as evidence, that would be silly, and you are saying the 'spots' on the rear wing, are holes.. really, that is stretching it. If indeed, as I have seen in photos and real life failures, the engine failed as "described" via all the wiki and other sources, when those "holes" as you note would have been seen.. the rear engine would have been belching out huge black smoke clouds/stream" and the vertical stabilizer, along with the engine would have been destroyed.. splain that to me, seriously, if you have never seen a catastrophic turbine failure, you would not realize, that immediaatly.. I mean right now.. you would see flames, and really bad smoke.. trailing..

I did follow up, and after repeated attempts at some sort of "closure" for my wife and I, I simply closed that chapter of my life, and acquiesced to gov't following.

I don't like to fly much, anymore.  Never did. I always trusted the source. Even after that, I was ll ways apprehensive.

none the less, i am sorry to hear of the captains passing, he did an amazing job, of making sure people survived that crash.. GODSPEED sir.

as for fAA, well I have mixed emotions.

again, sorry for my comments.. I'm just glad I flew on the plane, prior to failures..

30 YEARS OF KAW.....

Offline fartymarty

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Re: Capt. Al Haynes died today....
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2019, 03:02:06 pm »
no, it was actually UIA 232, the ticket confirmed, Flight numbers do not rotate between individual "planes" as I noted.

Well I disagree, Airlines rotate individual aircraft on flights all the time. Being on Flight 232 doesn't mean you were on the exact same aircraft, if you knew that you were on N1819U, then yes you were on the exact same aircraft.

explain the same Lighted areas of the right main wing.. don't take a single photo as evidence, that would be silly, and you are saying the 'spots' on the rear wing, are holes.. really, that is stretching it.

The lighted areas under the starboard wing are the flap screw jack covers which are simply lighted better because they protrude below the wing.

 I'm not saying those are holes, others are saying it. Specifically the NTSB is saying it. I guess they stretched it too... or are covering it all up for United?.

none the less, i am sorry to hear of the captains passing, he did an amazing job, of making sure people survived that crash.. GODSPEED sir.

 I'm just glad I flew on the plane, prior to failures..

Finally a couple* of things we can agree on.    (*that is if you were actually on N1819U)

as for fAA, well I have mixed emotions.

Having worked been employed by them for 34 years, I too have mixed emotions about the FAA.

Look MOB, we aren't growing apart, we're growing together.  :-*  :grouphug:

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Capt. Al Haynes died today....
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2019, 04:26:51 pm »
Not blade failure, hub failure. The titanium hub (that part that mounts the impellers or 'blades') was forged with an 'inclusion' no larger than a grain of sand when it was manufactured. Almost impossible to detect, it also caused no immediate problems. But heating / cooling cycles, and millions and millions of vibration cycles caused the metal around that inclusion to crack, and that crack propagated toward the outside of the hub over years (literally) and thousands of hours of use. One day, that particular day in 1989, the crack was finally large enough that centripetal force pulled the hub apart and the engine effectively blew up.

The hub was recovered after a very intensive search and the problem found. The NTSB faulted United for not finding the crack during normal inspections because they found penetrant dye inside the crack, meaning that the crack should have been detectable in regular inspection(s). That may or may not be the case but clearly the crack made it to the outside of the hub well before actually causing the hub failure. But to my knowledge, GE was not faulted for the crack in the hub; it did not exist when they manufactured the hub and almost certainly was not detectable without testing to destruction (which would not have done anyone any good anyway, right?).

In a way, it is almost amazing that more gas turbine engines do not fail far more often- they are under tremendous stress, in awful circumstances (extreme pressure, bending forces and extremely high temperatures). For the amount of jet aircraft hours and mileages generated, there are really an extremely small number that fail in flight without some clear and external reason, such as debris (bird, hail, etc.) ingestion and outer housing flexing due to high loading on the engine from aircraft movement.

Brian


<snip>

I frankly never bought the line given for the cause of the crash, when they said blade failure, and always felt it was an un seen problem that was pre existing..  thank goodness my company wasn't making the blades for GE.. but they did get hammered by the Gov't, for hiding "flaws" well prior to that incident.. doh.  ::)
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline Boomer

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Re: Capt. Al Haynes died today....
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2019, 08:55:43 am »
RIP Captain Haynes, as immortalised by Charlton Heston in the movie "A Thousand Heroes"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Thousand_Heroes
George "Boomer" Garratt
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