Author Topic: Valve clearance gone wrong  (Read 6463 times)

Offline Maverick

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 26
  • Country: nl
  • I rode below sea level...and survived
Valve clearance gone wrong
« on: May 31, 2012, 01:39:31 PM »
I dropped my bike at my Kawasaki exclusive dealer. After couple of days, no news.
I finally got one of his staff on the phone and I was told that after completing the check, they put the bike on the bench and it leaked upon testing.
She could not tell me what was leaking or where, but she just said that owner was working himself after hours to fix the problem.
I am just wondering what could have gone wrong, the bike was running great before, and it has to be serious since it is taking so much time to get the problem fixed.
Any ideas??
GTR Club Europe Member # 388
1400 GTR 2008

Offline stevewfl

  • Arena
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4268
  • Country: 00
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2012, 01:42:02 PM »
Beware of stealership mechanics, hope they plug whatever leak correctly for you
“The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.” St. Augustine

Offline Pokey

  • Arena
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2487
  • Country: us
  • WESTERVILLE OHIO 'Twit"
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2012, 03:51:45 PM »
I am thinking more and more of just leaving mine alone.
2006 DL1000  2006 SV650
08 C14 "gone"

"All we have to do is decide what to do with the time given to us". Gandalf the Grey

Offline Tim

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 215
  • Country: us
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2012, 05:28:43 PM »
We all know a valve check for this bike is more involved than others. I think once things settle in swapping valve shims could be far between. BUT just any other mechanical lifter/valve train they do have to be checked. When and how often seems to be the question. I would rather go through the mess of checking clearance than replacing a burned valve or two.

My local Hardly/Kawa wrench said he thought the valve check at 15,000 miles was too soon, but I had it done anyways for piece of mind. (no changes)

 My former boss always made fun of me when I followed the maintenance schedule. I try to follow the rules because unlike the old boss, I have not blown any pistols up.   
I don't always ride a street bike. But when I do, it's a Concours. Ride safely my friend.

Offline lather

  • Arena
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1591
  • Country: us
  • And I think my spaceship knows which way to go...
    • Louisiana Chapter MSTA
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2012, 06:31:33 PM »
A likely scenario is that the mechanic knocked the valve cover gasket out of place when he replaced the cover.
Nothing worse than having your balls go missing.

Offline Jeremy Mitchell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1756
  • Country: 00
  • COG#9899
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2012, 07:17:12 PM »
A likely scenario is that the mechanic knocked the valve cover gasket out of place when he replaced the cover.

Very possible.  I almost screwed mine up when I was tightening my valve cover down and fixed it before I pinched the gasket.
Keeping the economy going, one tank of fuel and two tires at a time.

Offline feelergaugephil

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 205
  • Country: us
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2012, 09:19:46 PM »
A likely scenario is that the mechanic knocked the valve cover gasket out of place when he replaced the cover.
+1........
Dont take my LOW post count as being a new Connie owner, I have been with the "other site" before it imploded........

13 Connie dressed in blue

Offline Maverick

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 26
  • Country: nl
  • I rode below sea level...and survived
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2012, 04:39:20 AM »
OK, just got the bike back, he did not forget the gasket, but he put the old one back on, and for some reasons it was no longer a tight fit, the new one was still sitting in his tool tray ! When he put a new one back on, no problems ! but that caused him a lot of overtime coz he had to wait for the bike to cool down before changing it !! I was not charged, still a hefty bill of around 900 USD but all fluids in the bike except fork oil were changed.
As to the valve correction changes, at 26200 miles, almost 11k mi more of what is recommended in the US, a minor adjustment had to be made on certain valves, Kawa manual states that normal should reading should be between 0.19 and 0.25, 5 valves were at 0.16 the rest within specs.
He said, that my engine was in impeccable working condition, I am very happy with my PC5 custom map, coupled with auto tune set up a 1% correction... I am good for another 25K mi.
GTR Club Europe Member # 388
1400 GTR 2008

Offline h2oplayer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2012, 09:00:32 AM »
Time for a new mechanic!

OK, just got the bike back, he did not forget the gasket, but he put the old one back on, and for some reasons it was no longer a tight fit, the new one was still sitting in his tool tray ! When he put a new one back on, no problems ! but that caused him a lot of overtime coz he had to wait for the bike to cool down before changing it !! I was not charged, still a hefty bill of around 900 USD but all fluids in the bike except fork oil were changed.
As to the valve correction changes, at 26200 miles, almost 11k mi more of what is recommended in the US, a minor adjustment had to be made on certain valves, Kawa manual states that normal should reading should be between 0.19 and 0.25, 5 valves were at 0.16 the rest within specs.
He said, that my engine was in impeccable working condition, I am very happy with my PC5 custom map, coupled with auto tune set up a 1% correction... I am good for another 25K mi.

Offline C1xRider

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 836
  • Country: us
  • Where did all the posts go?!??
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2012, 09:33:25 AM »
Time for a new mechanic!

I'm not sure I would go that far, as he did right by the customer, and fixed the problem at his own expense (nobody is perfect, and mistakes do happen).  Certainly better then claiming it was done when it really wasn't.

There's a lot of stuff to go through on this bike just to get to the valve cover, and with the distractions of a shop, one could easily think they changed the gasket, but didn't.

The urge to reassemble it and hear it run after doing all that is really strong, and could cause one to overlook which gasket is which.  Plus, it's a rubber gasket, so just looking at it wont tell you much.  You would probably have to do a side by side comparison to tell which was new and which was used.

--------------------   BACK UP YOUR DISKS PEOPLE!! -------------------------------
2012 K1600 GTL 8), 2010 C14 ABS, 2002 HD FXSTDI, 2000 XT350, 1998 C10, 1983 V65 Magna, 1978 HD SX250

Offline katata1100

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2012, 09:42:14 AM »
I am fearful to take my bike to the local dealer for a valve check. Around here, most of the bikes sold seem to be dirt bikes and cruisers. I have only seen two C14's on the sales floor since '08, never seen a ZX 14 on the floor at all. I asked the service manager how often they see these bikes and he kind of said "not often".
To me that means "never". I really don't want to spend $600-$800 to offer up my bike as a learning experience to a mechanic who has never worked on one before.To me, it is like agreeing to a surgeons first open heart surgery.  I see excellent opportunities for breaking/scratching painted plastic too.When I first got my Suzuki, I brought it for a valve adj and it came back with stripped cam tower threads. As I learned, "why pay someone to screw up your bike when you can screw it up yourself for free?"

Offline C1xRider

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 836
  • Country: us
  • Where did all the posts go?!??
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2012, 09:52:59 AM »
I am fearful to take my bike to the local dealer for a valve check. Around here, most of the bikes sold seem to be dirt bikes and cruisers. I have only seen two C14's on the sales floor since '08, never seen a ZX 14 on the floor at all. I asked the service manager how often they see these bikes and he kind of said "not often".
To me that means "never". I really don't want to spend $600-$800 to offer up my bike as a learning experience to a mechanic who has never worked on one before.To me, it is like agreeing to a surgeons first open heart surgery.  I see excellent opportunities for breaking/scratching painted plastic too.When I first got my Suzuki, I brought it for a valve adj and it came back with stripped cam tower threads. As I learned, "why pay someone to screw up your bike when you can screw it up yourself for free?"

It doesn't take a lot of mechanical knowledge or aptitude to do a valve adjust on this bike.  Just patience, research before starting, patience during dis-assembly, lots of space to spread out all the parts you will remove, patience, taking digital pictures of everything along the way, patience, marking all the parts from whence they came, patience, time, coming back to this forum to share your troubles and experiences with us so we can laugh at with you, patience while we help you sort out what you did wrong, and oh yes, did I mention patience?
--------------------   BACK UP YOUR DISKS PEOPLE!! -------------------------------
2012 K1600 GTL 8), 2010 C14 ABS, 2002 HD FXSTDI, 2000 XT350, 1998 C10, 1983 V65 Magna, 1978 HD SX250

Offline Maverick

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 26
  • Country: nl
  • I rode below sea level...and survived
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2012, 01:51:08 PM »
I'm not sure I would go that far, as he did right by the customer, and fixed the problem at his own expense (nobody is perfect, and mistakes do happen).  Certainly better then claiming it was done when it really wasn't.

There's a lot of stuff to go through on this bike just to get to the valve cover, and with the distractions of a shop, one could easily think they changed the gasket, but didn't.

The urge to reassemble it and hear it run after doing all that is really strong, and could cause one to overlook which gasket is which.  Plus, it's a rubber gasket, so just looking at it wont tell you much.  You would probably have to do a side by side comparison to tell which was new and which was used.

You are right, it was an honest mistake, he never hid or tried to lie to me, he just told me the truth, and error is human, so I appreciate his honesty and will stick with him, and it was a flat fee, he told me how much he would cost me before I brought the bike, since he did so many GTR before, and he spent far more man-hour on the bike than what he should have.  The rest of the service was impeccable...
GTR Club Europe Member # 388
1400 GTR 2008

Offline Pokey

  • Arena
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2487
  • Country: us
  • WESTERVILLE OHIO 'Twit"
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2012, 05:13:27 PM »
It doesn't take a lot of mechanical knowledge or aptitude to do a valve adjust on this bike.  Just patience, research before starting, patience during dis-assembly, lots of space to spread out all the parts you will remove, patience, taking digital pictures of everything along the way, patience, marking all the parts from whence they came, patience, time, coming back to this forum to share your troubles and experiences with us so we can laugh at with you, patience while we help you sort out what you did wrong, and oh yes, did I mention patience?


And few have the patience and "skill" that is needed to do this. Just check the clearances maybe, going further than that I would say no for most.
2006 DL1000  2006 SV650
08 C14 "gone"

"All we have to do is decide what to do with the time given to us". Gandalf the Grey

Offline charles r

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 35
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2012, 02:41:30 AM »

And few have the patience and "skill" that is needed to do this. Just check the clearances maybe, going further than that I would say no for most.

I second that.
I'm even a professional mechanic that could do the job... If I wanted to. My choice to not (ever) do my valves myself was made the moment I read "shim under bucket". Devil's creation I tell you!

Offline katata1100

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 629
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2012, 08:55:50 AM »
.  Just patience, research before starting, patience during dis-assembly, lots of space to spread out all the parts you will remove, patience, taking digital pictures of everything along the way, patience, marking all the parts from whence they came, patience, time, coming back to this forum to share your troubles and experiences with us so we can laugh at with you, patience while we help you sort out what you did wrong, and oh yes, did I mention patience?

I get this picture of a tech working on a C14 for the first time, with a backlog of some quads and dirtbikes that need warranty work and somehow, the image of patience and meticulous work doesn't come to mind.

Offline Pokey

  • Arena
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2487
  • Country: us
  • WESTERVILLE OHIO 'Twit"
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2012, 09:26:00 AM »
I second that.
I'm even a professional mechanic that could do the job... If I wanted to. My choice to not (ever) do my valves myself was made the moment I read "shim under bucket". Devil's creation I tell you!


Shim under bucket isnt that big of a deal, but the complication of the engine makes all the difference. My old Vstrom 1000 wasn't bad to do at all, did that myself with no issues. Was barely out of spec at 17k, but decided to adjust to middle of spec while I was in there.
2006 DL1000  2006 SV650
08 C14 "gone"

"All we have to do is decide what to do with the time given to us". Gandalf the Grey

Offline Z71

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2012, 07:44:38 PM »
I am thinking more and more of just leaving mine alone.

I am thinking along the same lines. Shim under bucket adjusters stay within spec much longer than screw and nut adjusters.   I have a Mazda 626 with solid valve lifters and shim under bucket adjusters.  The valves have never been adjusted and the car runs great with 336,000+ miles on it!!!!!!   I checked the clearance first time at 290,000 miles and only 2 valves out of 24 were slightly out of spec range on the loose side.  So I left the valves alone. Mazda says do not bother with the valve sif they do not make noise.

So I am inclined to check he clearances on the C14 but if I find nothing out of range, I will not mess with the bike so I can just get them exactly into the middle of the range. 

Offline Z71

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2012, 07:47:28 PM »
As I learned, "why pay someone to screw up your bike when you can screw it up yourself for free?"

Agree 100%.  When you do it yourself, you can take a lot longer, you are not under pressure to get the job done, so you will work more carefully.

Some years ago I took a mid 80s Mercedes 300SD turbodiesel for valve adjustment to this "mechanic" who specialized in European cars.  He got exhaust and intake valve clearances mixed up and adjusted intake valves to exhaust valves spec and vice versa.  I only found this out when it was time for the next valve adjustment 15k miles later.  Needless to say I was not happy about it.  After this experience, I always adjusted he valves myself.

Offline C1xRider

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 836
  • Country: us
  • Where did all the posts go?!??
Re: Valve clearance gone wrong
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2012, 08:05:56 PM »
From everything I've read, I'll be checking mine about every 25K miles.  I don't expect them to change by much, but I ride mine pretty hard, so it's not unreasonable to expect the valves to eat into the seats enough to put one or two valves slightly out of spec in that time.

I'll do it to keep vibrations down and performance up, more then anything else.

I do need to recant my earlier statement, and agree with Pokey and charles r.  I've been wrenching on everything I own for my entire life, and I'm told I'm really good at it (it comes natural to me).  I also have a compete shop setup with all the tools I need and a lift, so I tend to forget what others may be working with.

Doing the valve inspection on the C14 is a big job, requiring a place to put all the pieces you remove (and there are a lot of them), in some organized fashion.  You also need to be able to leave them like that for a couple of days to a couple of weeks.  It requires some tools you may not use very often, or may not have (magnet on a stick is really important, for example).  You also need a place to have the bike, with the engine opened up, while you are waiting for shims, or time to work on it.  It also helps to have small hands, and very good dexterity.

I certainly would not discourage anyone from tackling this job, in fact just the opposite.  I would really encourage them to thoroughly research it from beginning to end, knowing what they are getting into before they start, so they wont suddenly find themselves "in over their heads".
--------------------   BACK UP YOUR DISKS PEOPLE!! -------------------------------
2012 K1600 GTL 8), 2010 C14 ABS, 2002 HD FXSTDI, 2000 XT350, 1998 C10, 1983 V65 Magna, 1978 HD SX250