Author Topic: Another Oil thread...  (Read 15027 times)

Offline Fretka

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Re: Another Oil thread...
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2012, 10:57:18 am »

Really......explain?

When we have some very knowledgeable people like the S.A.E. and the designers, metallurgists etc.. doing our oil research for us.... why worry? Read the directions in your owners manual and save the verbal thrashing for something more appropriate like car tires on your bike.
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Offline lather

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Re: Another Oil thread...
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2012, 12:16:46 pm »

I have been puzzled for years about the reports of "notchy" shifting here; one because I had never experienced "notchy" shifting and two I don't understand the implied correlation between oil "quality" and  shifting performance. Lubrication of the simple mechanical moving parts of the shifting mechanisms would seem to demand many many times less lubrication/oil quality than parts like cam lobes, crank bearings, pistons rings and cylindar walls. So it seems to me if your oil has broken down to the pint that it can't properly lubricate the shift mehanisms than you engine should be toast.

So what causes poor shift quality or "notchy" shifting? I think  it can only be three things, misadjusted shift lever or clutch lever, inadequate hydraulic pressure or clutch drag due to excess oil viscosity Have you ever started a cold bike and noticed with the clutch pulled fully and in first gear the bike wants to creep forward? That is clutch drag. It usually goes away when the oil warms up.

So when a batch of oil starts to get old what is it that causes poor shifting. In my view it can't be loss of viscosity. Prove me wrong please.

Interestingly enough, other than hydraulic pressure problems or misadjusted  levers I had never in 40+ years experienced poor shift quality in any motorcycle until I tried some Motul V300 15W50, considered an excellent synthetic motorcycle specific oil, in my C14. Very minor but it is noticeable.  However,  there is now no change after draining the Motul and going back to Rotell T6 5W40 so it could be that my nearly 5 year old, 83000 mile Concours is past her prime.

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Offline lt1

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Re: Another Oil thread...
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2012, 12:36:58 pm »
+1    Smart man.
Really......explain?
When we have some very knowledgeable people like the S.A.E. and the designers, metallurgists etc.. doing our oil research for us.... why worry? Read the directions in your owners manual and save the verbal thrashing for something more appropriate like car tires on your bike.
Ah, now we have an oil thread.  It really isn't an "oil thread" until we start snipping at each other.

Like most of motorcycling, it usually comes back to risk management.  Whether debating gear, oil, tires, brands, or whatever, hard use and infrequent changes tend to the the hardest on the bike or rider.  With gentle use and more frequent replacement, we can be happy with an even wider variety of choices most of the time.

The engineers and manufactures seem to have done well enough for us to be able to enjoy our off-spec deviations and still get good results.  Most of our quibbling is about ideal vs optimal, rather than acceptable vs disastrous.  I, for one, am grateful for that.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Another Oil thread...
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2012, 01:20:12 pm »
I think that is a pretty good thought Tony. VI additives are basically plastic and shear fairly easily and quickly. They may also provide an intermediate surface for the shifting forks to ride on making shifting easier. ???

EP additives in the form of ZDDP also seem to be a big factor- adding them to the oil makes an immediate difference as well as improving the shifting quality after a lot of miles accumulate on the oil.

Brian

I think that this boils down to the dino oils using more VI additives to make the summer grade in that a 10W40 needs more VI to make 40 than say a 15W40 does. It is long proven that the VI additives are the first thing to break down in an oil and thus the deterioration of shift quality as the oil ages. Then you have synthetic oils which by nature don't need any where near the VI to make or maintain grade when hot so some synthetic oils such as 5W40 may not really improve shift quality for some riders whereas an oil such as 15W50 will due to the base oil being a 15 over a 5 and much thicker.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Another Oil thread...
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2012, 01:25:12 pm »
Yep, that advice works too I think. Still, it is an interesting subject and who knows, we just might learn something by accident.

I would not count on S.A.E. members doing much- I've spent a bunch of time with some of those folks and their long suit seems to be alcohol consumption..... at least in my experience. :-)  The field of study that encompasses motor oil and its use would be tribology. A fairly new field, it is gaining ground in quite a few engineering schools (falling under the mechanical engineering dept. 'cause the Che folks won't touch it   :D ).

Brian

When we have some very knowledgeable people like the S.A.E. and the designers, metallurgists etc.. doing our oil research for us.... why worry? Read the directions in your owners manual and save the verbal thrashing for something more appropriate like car tires on your bike.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Another Oil thread...
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2012, 01:52:33 pm »
Speaking only for myself, I use the word 'notchy' to describe shifting that takes more effort, can be felt dragging while moving between gears, and has definite resistance to the start of movement. The C-14 seems particularly sensitive and variable regarding shifting feel; sometimes it is almost like the shift lever is not connected to anything (little to no resistance, no resistance to starting the fork moving, and no real feel of anything until the fork hits an internal stop) and other times it feels very mechanical, takes noticeably more effort, and sometimes feels like it would like to stop moving a bit short of fully engaged.

Lubrication in an engine works in basically two different ways, one is hydrodynamic and the other is direct contact sliding. Of the two, hydrodynamic lubrication is far more critical and what motor oil is mostly designed to create. It is where there is enough motion to allow one part to 'water ski' against another part without ever actually touching that other part. Main bearings, cam lobes and bearings, con rod bearings (mostly) are lubricated this way.

Shifting does not involve that though- only static, direct- contact lubrication comes into play. The shifting drum, forks and everything else involved in shifting do not float on a film of oil but make actual mechanical contact with the mating parts. The lubrication used in those cases is contact lube and is addressed by the EP (extreme pressure) lubricant additives in motor oil. The two major groups of EP usually used in motor oil are ZDDP (a chemical combination of zinc and phosphorus) and moly disulfide (moly), both of which are actually dry lubricants in suspension in the motor oil. I do not know why C-14s, at least mine, are so sensitive to lubricants regarding shifting but I do know that increasing the ZDDP content makes the bike shift better, easier and for much longer as the miles pile up on the oil. I think it is also interesting that the ZDDP content has been reduced <more or less> by about half in the latest formulations of motor oil in the US due to environmental concerns (the zinc can coat a catalytic converter and render it unable to catalyze). But the static or EP lubes have absolutely no effect on any surface being lubed as a hydrostatic bearing so the shifting feel is not indicative of the quality of a motor oil, at least not in the way we really need it to lubricate. An oil that causes (or allows) lousy shifting may be a wonderful lubricant for the parts of the engine that really need to be protected from wear.

I doubt your bike is worn enough anywhere in the transmission to cause any change in shifting feel and it is certainly not worn out.

It is funny that you mention shifting quality was a bit down with Motul and did not improve going back to Rotella T6 because I have found, at least in my own C-14, that T6 causes about the worst shifting of any oil I have tried. I honestly do believe that T6 is a great motor oil (as are all the diesel fleet oils IMO) but this last formulation was terrible from a shifting point of view- T5 was much better, again at least in my bike and my experience.

And the differences I have noticed are definitely due to the oil being used because they change immediately when the oil is changed and nothing else done to the bike. Something like clutch hydraulics could not cause that unless the hydraulic system was changed in some way at the same time the oil was changed.

Just for chuckles, it would be interesting to see what you thought of Rotella 15W-40 and C-14 shifting. It works much, much better than T6 in my bike. Delvac 15W-40 seems to work even better (another diesel fleet oil). I am going to try Delo 15W-40 next. Another benefit of these oils is that they are all quite inexpensive; I do not use them because they are cheap, I use them because they are excellent oils but the cheap aspect is a great side- advantage.

What I do find amazing though is how some users find some oils to allow very nice shifting while others of us find those identical oils to cause notchy shifting. That just does not make any sense to me- I am sure it is true and I believe the information, I just cannot find any logical reason why different models of the same motorcycle would respond so differently to the same motor oil? By the way, the best shifting oil I ever used was Pennzoil 10W-40 which is also the least expensive oil I have ever used. Maybe using recycled oil would be the cat's pajamas?   ;D

Brian


I have been puzzled for years about the reports of "notchy" shifting here; one because I had never experienced "notchy" shifting and two I don't understand the implied correlation between oil "quality" and  shifting performance. Lubrication of the simple mechanical moving parts of the shifting mechanisms would seem to demand many many times less lubrication/oil quality than parts like cam lobes, crank bearings, pistons rings and cylindar walls. So it seems to me if your oil has broken down to the pint that it can't properly lubricate the shift mehanisms than you engine should be toast.

So what causes poor shift quality or "notchy" shifting? I think  it can only be three things, misadjusted shift lever or clutch lever, inadequate hydraulic pressure or clutch drag due to excess oil viscosity Have you ever started a cold bike and noticed with the clutch pulled fully and in first gear the bike wants to creep forward? That is clutch drag. It usually goes away when the oil warms up.

So when a batch of oil starts to get old what is it that causes poor shifting. In my view it can't be loss of viscosity. Prove me wrong please.

Interestingly enough, other than hydraulic pressure problems or misadjusted  levers I had never in 40+ years experienced poor shift quality in any motorcycle until I tried some Motul V300 15W50, considered an excellent synthetic motorcycle specific oil, in my C14. Very minor but it is noticeable.  However,  there is now no change after draining the Motul and going back to Rotell T6 5W40 so it could be that my nearly 5 year old, 83000 mile Concours is past her prime.
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Offline Pokey

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Re: Another Oil thread...
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2012, 03:42:39 pm »
When we have some very knowledgeable people like the S.A.E. and the designers, metallurgists etc.. doing our oil research for us.... why worry? Read the directions in your owners manual and save the verbal thrashing for something more appropriate like car tires on your bike.


Paranoia will destroy ya, and it all comes down to money and scare tactics. Who is "actually" an expert, who do we trust, who is not in it for themselves or the companies they work for? Oil analysis has been done on plenty of bikes running the fleet oils, some have even shown it to be superior to several high end "moto specific" oils. ;)  Never had a bike that burned oil, never had a clutch slip, shifting and engine temps have been excellent.......this has all been with Rotella and Delvac in my crankcases. Do as you wish, I will keep on using the diesel oils "good stuff".
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Offline scooter

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Re: Another Oil thread...
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2012, 06:02:26 pm »
there ya go. get all the information you can and decide for yourself, not what some one else thinks.its the bike owners decision let them run what ever oil they want.im not going to change the way i service my bike because of some ones opinion and neither should any one else.

Offline C1xRider

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Re: Another Oil thread...
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2012, 11:41:17 am »
<snip...>

What I do find amazing though is how some users find some oils to allow very nice shifting while others of us find those identical oils to cause notchy shifting. That just does not make any sense to me- I am sure it is true and I believe the information, I just cannot find any logical reason why different models of the same motorcycle would respond so differently to the same motor oil? By the way, the best shifting oil I ever used was Pennzoil 10W-40 which is also the least expensive oil I have ever used. Maybe using recycled oil would be the cat's pajamas?   ;D

Brian

Totally agree with this.  After hearing from Pokey and Jim about how bad Amsoil worked for them, and knowing how well it has worked in my previous bikes, I tried some in my C14.  It worked great w/ very smooth shifting right to the end, even though I left it in a little too long (7,654 miles), as I was waiting to do the valve adjustment before changing it.

After the valve adjust, I changed the oil and used the same exact oil from the same exact case as the first batch, and after the first couple hundred miles, very notchy shifting.   :banghead:

So WTH? 

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Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Another Oil thread...
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2012, 03:02:18 pm »
You should have listened to Pokey and Jim.... ::) ;)
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Offline Cuda

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Re: Another Oil thread...
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2012, 03:55:16 pm »
I race outboard boats and visit a website from the Texas / La area ( Byuboyz,com ) most of their racers work in the oil indusrty in one way or another, One of the guys that works in the packaging dept of a very large  oil refinery said they package MOST brands there just different packaging , same oil, except for Rotella , then about a year year and a half ago he said they changed the formula for Rotella and he said be AFRAID , VERY AFRAID he did not explain? I own Eleven  Diesels and I always use straight weight Rotella oil, I was told a long time ago straight weight will not break down as quick, plus it never gets below 32 degrees here , Naples Fl. I take that back I do used Mobil 1 truck oil in my Cummins diesel , bike and car, I like wasting my money on oil, one of my bad habits ::)
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Offline C1xRider

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Re: Another Oil thread...
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2012, 06:54:48 pm »
You should have listened to Pokey and Jim.... ::) ;)

But that's so hard to do.  :)
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Offline booger

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Re: Another Oil thread...
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2012, 07:57:01 pm »
It took me many years to come to this conclusion.  I run whatever brand of oil the dealer I bought the vehicle from recommends, whether motorcycles or cars.

I have the dealer to do all my maintenance, including change the oil.  And I use their filter.  I am more than capable of doing my own maintenance.  However, I also can afford for the dealer to do it for me.  Crap, I even let them change the wiper blades!!!   So I let them screw  me.  But it puts the liability on them.

Had a water pump go out at 42K miles on my Jeep Rubicon, just out of warranty.  Dealer pulled the pump and started running on my ass about how corroded it was.  Interestingy enough, they had flushed the engine and radiator and changed the antifreeze out at 36K miles.  They ate the bill.

Same with brakes on my Honda CRV.  Master cylinder went out just months after they had "flushed" the brake lines.  They at the bill.

Clutch went out on my Suzuki Hayabusa (still in warranty).  Shop manager was asking what kind of oil I used to tear the plates up.  Told him I had no frigging idea as he had done 100% of the maintenance work and obviously used a crappy oil, if that's what caused the problem.  New clutch at no cost.

VW replaced a motor in my 2001 Jetta VR6 when it was 40000 miles out of warranty. Same scenario.  All of the maintenance was done by them, at their recommended schedule, etc. (this one took a little time to pull off_

Offline Fretka

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Re: Another Oil thread...
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2012, 11:40:00 pm »
The very best shifting I have ever experienced is my 2006 Ducati 999R. Different brands of oil make no difference in shifting quality.
What do y'all think that could be? (hint: a traditional Ducati feature).
So.... if what I'm getting at here is true, then maybe that explains part of the reason some oils work better than others in our C-14 as regards to shifting feel.
(it's no fun if I just come out and say it).

NeFretka
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Offline gPink

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Re: Another Oil thread...
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2012, 06:07:26 am »
aggressive shifting at high rpm  8)
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