Author Topic: Won't start-Need some trouble shooting help [Solved]  (Read 816 times)

Offline ginzburg

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Won't start-Need some trouble shooting help [Solved]
« on: May 31, 2019, 11:03:13 am »
I have been finally repairing my 2011. It started fine before I started working on it. The battery seems like it is still charged up, but I did order a new one anyway. It will take a while to get here so I have some time to look at what else it could be.

When I turn on the key, a relay on the left under the fairing starts clicking. I didn't know if that was normal or not. Now I think that is not normal. The motor does turn over and seems like it should start so it doesn't seem like it is necessarily the battery.

I also got the alternating coolant level flashing. The manual says this is a communication error. I did see the FI error also. It is hard to tell, but the entire lcd seems to fade with the relay clicking. After fully charging the battery, I now get the FI error all the time.

I had to replace the right side motor mount so I could have knocked something loose there. I also have been moving the gages and the headlight. It sounded like the tip over sensor is located there. I don't know where the tip-over sensor actually is. I also read that the tip-over sensor flashes the lights, so that could be the relay I hear. I just read that, so I don't really know if the lights were flashing or not.

There are lots of things to check, so I thought maybe someone has an idea where to start.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 10:10:21 pm by ginzburg »

Offline tweeter55

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Re: Won't start-Need some trouble shooting help
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2019, 11:41:22 am »
Grounds...check the grounds. Good place to start.
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Offline ginzburg

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Re: Won't start-Need some trouble shooting help
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2019, 05:40:59 pm »
I cleaned the two battery grounds. I did have to remove the frame bracket which connects right near there. It seems like it could have caused the problem, but I'm still looking for what that relay on the left is that clicks. I was really hoping it was a ground. It could still be another one. The relay does not click with the kill switch on. It still could just be a bad battery, but the voltage is around 12.8 and the dash indicates around 12.6. I have yet to determine what relay this is. The clicking sort of changes speeds.

I did find the answer to where the tip-over switch should be. It is called the vehicle-down sensor in the manual. It should be located under the rear fender. It does say that the engine will turn over, but it won't start with this sensor activated. I don't see any codes though, so it might not be it. I didn't really do anything in that area.

I saw on another thread that they had problems with the ignition relay in the trunk. I also have that ignition relay in the trunk. I don't know what the ignition relay controls though. My starter does crank. My lights aren't flashing either. I don't really know if they are supposed to with this switch on. My lights actually aren't turned on at all. I need to check that out.

One good outcome of messing with this is that I must have unbent the stoveknob enough that I was finally able to remove it. It was pretty grimy under there.

Offline ginzburg

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Re: Won't start-Need some trouble shooting help
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2019, 12:33:12 pm »
I located and cleaned the ground under the tank. Removing the tank was easier that I originally though. There  was also a ground to the frame near the clicking relay and that got cleaned. That didn't improve anything.

I also replaced the ignition relay. This was a pretty common one that was easy to find at Napa so I tried this.

A new battery did not help either.

Thinking back, it seems like maybe it had rained since I last started it and so maybe there is a common place for rain to collect that I should check. One change is that the relay on the left no longer clicks rapidly. I think this means the problem got worse though.

One thing that did seem pretty suspect was that there was some corrosion residue inside the main power relay that is behind the battery. I cleaned the connection, but it just didn't seem like an area that should have any corrosion at all. I am not sure what the main relay turns on exactly in order to test it. Perhaps it has corrosion inside. I might need to check into this further. I'm not sure what part this is yet.


Offline ginzburg

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Re: Won't start-Need some trouble shooting help
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2019, 02:22:04 pm »
I am still trying to figure this out. I did find another thread that has very similar symptoms, but it has no outcome that I can find.

I am not too familiar with what sounds I am hearing, buy I assume it is the fly valves trying to move. I also had the relay clicking on the left, but it doesn't always do it.

I thought the dash had been indicating 12.6 or so. It is now consistently around 9v on the display when it does display anything just like on this thread. My battery is around 13v. I did charge it before trying it, but I do have a 1.5 A battery tender/charger. I would consider buying a 2/6 A charger if that has any possibility of being the problem like could have been the problem on the other thread. It isn't just a tender though and it seems to be fully charged.

There was recent rain similar to the washing of the bike like in this thread.  Apparently Man of Blues  would get this exact question all the time. I can't find the answer except for cleaning the grounds and checking the battery.

My tail lights do not come on when I turn on the key. This seems to be an important clue. That says to inspect the steering lock unit. That could get water in it probably. I am not sure what to test here first though.

One thing I read in the manual is that having the dash tilted for an extended period of time can damage it. I had been messing with the dash and may have had it tipped over. What would this do to damage it though? Unplugging the dash yields the same symptoms.

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=21303.0


Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Won't start-Need some trouble shooting help
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2019, 04:04:57 pm »
You mentioned you are waiting for your new battery to arrive, when it shows up, fully charge it prior to installing, especially if it comes "dry", add the acid, let it sit, bounce it around a bit every 10 minutes, for about a half hour, then place it on charge (2 amp) manually and make sure it comes up to 14v...
(tenders are not reliable "chargers", like a manual charger... a tender will sense a charge, and say it's charged, when in fact it takes a deeper "cycle" to really charge the batt, and return the electrolyte to usable...and if there are mini shorts, or any sulfation/debris in the batt, you never know it.)...then proceed from there.
I'm thinking even tho you been charging and messing with the battery you have, it's toast internally, and if "load tested", it would show as "bad", even tho it shows 12+ volts, without a load, you can't bet its "good"... if you are only "checking" volts.

don't freak out further, and rip a whole bunch of stuff apart, like the dash, and ignition switch, and anything else, until you get your new battery done, and installed. Creating a grocery list of stuff removed and messed with just makes it more difficult to analyze the issue.

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Offline ginzburg

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Re: Won't start-Need some trouble shooting help [Solved]
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2019, 11:16:39 pm »
Walmart didn't have that charger, but I didn't realize that the charger I use for my car has a 2A mode so I used that. I didn't want to cook the battery before. It was odd that I used the same Battery tender Plus charger as one of the other guys so I thought that could be it. It does say it is a charger, but it just feels really cheap to me. One thing I noticed is that Kawasaki recommends the Yuasa 1.5 A automatic charger or similar . I can't reaily find one. I saw the Schumacher SC1319 that seems similar and is pretty inexpensive.

I tested a lot of things in the manual, but I finally found the problem by poking and massaging wires. It was difficult to find because most wires around the steering lock would make the display change or gauges move. Poking around under the fuel take would also make things go haywire. I was finally able to find a bad connection in the large loom of wires under the tank on the left hand side. There are several wires that are crimped in parallel.  This was where the white wire combines three into one. I think it comes from the regulator and goes to the steering lock and dash. One of the wires was broken at the crimp, but it was still held in place with the tape. This loose connection must account for the low voltage reading on the dash. The crimps look pretty solid in general.

This wiring loom is not water proof since water seems to be able to collect in a crotch under the seat near the back of the tank and then seep down into this loom. It  looks like an area where water would collect if you hosed down the bike. My theory is that normally if one of these crimps fail, the tape is still pretty strong and can hold it in place until any moisture comes along and weakens the tape. This wasn't the area I was working around, so I guess that was just a coincidence.

Offline ginzburg

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Re: Won't start-Need some trouble shooting help [Solved]
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2019, 11:48:58 pm »
Here is a picture when I opened the loom. The blue tape covered the crimped wires. The white wire was broken where 3 combine into 1.  Also shown is where it looks like the water gets in.

Offline Freddy

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Re: Won't start-Need some trouble shooting help [Solved]
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2019, 03:51:02 am »
WELL DONE !!!    :banana
The best substitute for brains is .............what?

Offline VirginiaJim

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Re: Won't start-Need some trouble shooting help [Solved]
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2019, 05:02:12 am »
I wonder if that's one of those ground joints?  If so, I've heard of those causing issues.
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Offline Freddy

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Re: Won't start-Need some trouble shooting help [Solved]
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2019, 07:00:06 am »
I don't think so.

This is what they look like after tape is removed.
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Offline fartymarty

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Re: Won't start-Need some trouble shooting help [Solved]
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2019, 10:10:45 am »
....but I finally found the problem by poking and massaging wires. It was difficult to find because most wires around the steering lock would make the display change or gauges move. Poking around under the fuel take would also make things go haywire. I was finally able to find a bad connection in the large loom of wires under the tank on the left hand side. There are several wires that are crimped in parallel.  This was where the white wire combines three into one. I think it comes from the regulator and goes to the steering lock and dash. One of the wires was broken at the crimp, but it was still held in place with the tape. This loose connection must account for the low voltage reading on the dash. The crimps look pretty solid in general.

Well first off, thank you ginz' for coming back to let us know what you found. There are others that haven't bothered to take the time.

Secondly, where are you exactly with this? You mentioned that you found the problem. Does that mean exactly what it says, or is it now all repaired, put back together, road tested, and in running condition just like it used to be?

Thirdly do you have any speculation as to why this might have occurred?
You mention a spot above for collecting water, did the crimp down lower appear corroded? I'm guessing it's down low below or near the bottom of the fuel tank on the left side of the bike, correct?
The first photo with the blue tape has the most background info and does appear to be below or along side the lower portion of the gas tank area. It doesn't seem to be a high stress area for any maintenance procedure so perhaps if not corrosion failure, it's a factory assembly error, or manufacturing defect? There does appear to be a harness (loom) bend there in the shop manual drawing. Do I have the locations roughly correct in the attachment?

edit: I just looked at mine, and I think the potential water collection point is further to the right out of the drawing and isn't where I have it marked.

Offline ginzburg

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Re: Won't start-Need some trouble shooting help [Solved]
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2019, 06:13:30 pm »
I repaired the wire and that was obviously the issue I was having. The wires are white and so those are not ground wires. The schematic shows one coming right off of the power of the regulator. The only code I ever got was code 38 for the steering lock. The white wire does go to the steering lock also so that sort of makes sense.

You are right about where the water collection point seemed to be. It is just off of that picture. That area is flatter and has the cable touching the plastic underneath. The area in the picture is sloped and the cable isn't touching on mine. There was moisture in the loom. The area of the junction was just about right too. It was a bit forward of the lowest point. It was about at the end of a little plastic channel. I thought maybe it was where the zip tie holds it, but it wasn't. It really seems like there is no stress on the cables there like you said. The junctions were not generally corroded. Only the one wire had seemed to be broken clean off. I would say that it was an assembly error. It would be pretty hard to crimp three wires into one. The other wires were fine. It was probably just hanging by a few strands and maybe some corrosion finally did it it.

One thing I did notice is that the right side of this bike has an extra piece that closes the gap between the side panel and the seat. The left side doesn't have one for some reason and so that area isn't really shielded. I am probably going to raise that crotch area up a bit so that water runs down under it and add some tape.  I might see about getting the side piece for the left side too.

Offline MAN OF BLUES

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Re: Won't start-Need some trouble shooting help [Solved]
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2019, 06:49:43 pm »
thank you greatly for reporting what you found...  soo many wires, so little time..

that one "junction" point shown by Freddy above, is a "multi point" can-bus point, there are so many on this bike you were very lucky to find it.  Most of the Can-Bus connections are groupings of grounds. I don't know how you found the ones with the white wires, crimped, and covered in tape, but man, you lucked out there..  I'll "paste this one" in my memory banks.. and god forbid, I have to find it again.
congrats.

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Offline Freddy

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Re: Won't start-Need some trouble shooting help [Solved]
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2019, 09:23:50 pm »
What MOB said x2   :chugbeer:
The best substitute for brains is .............what?