Author Topic: SOLVED!! Severe Bog & Surging on 08 Concours 14 Solved!!  (Read 1033 times)

Offline speedracersworld

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SOLVED!! Severe Bog & Surging on 08 Concours 14 Solved!!
« on: July 26, 2019, 09:13:05 am »
Help! My 08 C-14 is Surging really awful around 4-5K rpm & up. It was doing it at 9k then started doing it at 7K & now around 4K. It ran really Amazing one time/ one day after a fill-up with Costco Gas; I filled up on my way to work & after work, it ran the best she's EVER ran; EVER! It was a cooler evening but the symptoms came back the following days. I drained the tank, removed the fuel pump, cleaned the pump & screen of greenish Algae looking buildup. It improved slightly but was still surging so I installed a new pump, screen with fresh gas & it's still acting up. Next is to inspect the injector screens but I'm suspecting the secondary throttle actuator. I believe it's sticking or worn. I'll clean & lube the secondary throttle shaft & see if that helps because when I back off the throttle, she lunges forward.

Any additional suggestions or insight would be much appreciated.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 09:36:40 pm by speedracersworld »
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Offline PH14

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Re: Severe Big & Surging on 08 Concours 14
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2019, 09:56:14 am »
Possibly electric. Check your connections and clean the ground where it attaches to the frame. It could also be a vacuum leak. Good luck.

Offline maxtog

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Re: Severe Big & Surging on 08 Concours 14
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2019, 03:06:16 pm »
Could you better describe the symptoms beyond "surging" for us?  To me, that means the engine RPM starts to increase noticeably/suddenly, under constant load and throttle, even though you are not applying more "gas" (turning the throttle).

BTW- You need to check your signature, you say 2008 "Atomic Silver" (which is real silver), that was available only for 2011.  I think you mean "Neutron Silver" (light stone-bluish silver).

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=20250.0
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Offline speedracersworld

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Re: Severe Big & Surging on 08 Concours 14
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2019, 03:28:15 pm »
Could you better describe the symptoms beyond "surging" for us?  To me, that means the engine RPM starts to increase noticeably/suddenly, under constant load and throttle, even though you are not applying more "gas" (turning the throttle).

BTW- You need to check your signature, you say 2008 "Atomic Silver" (which is real silver), that was available only for 2011.  I think you mean "Neutron Silver" (light stone-bluish silver).

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=20250.0



Thanks maxtog; on both the symptoms clarification and color. Atoms have Neutrons! ;D Atoms are what I had on my mind when I edited my profile.

So: when I start accelerating, it gets up to 4-4.5K rpms and falls on its face but if I back off the throttle, it will slowly pickup speed as long as I keep modulating the throttle according to feel and I back off if she feels like bogging. I cannot reach redline or anywhere close. The highest I can get to is 9K rpms & it takes forever!! Seems the hotter it gets, the worse its performance. It's easy to remove the tank & clean the secondary throttle shaft but a lot harder to remove the throttle bodies. I even bought a ZX14 TB Assy without the Secondaries to try that. BTW, No Codes or Warning/ Fault Lights are present.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Severe Big & Surging on 08 Concours 14
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2019, 03:55:12 pm »
Sounds like a clogged fuel strainer causing fuel starvation.

The screen is located in the fuel pump ass'y, which is inside the fuel tank. Not too awful to do an R&R but you will have to empty the tank and pull some fairings off before you can remove the tank and invert it. The pump is inside the tank and is installed and removed from the bottom.

Lots of info. on the 'Net about this issue along with photos.

Best of luck.

Brian

Help! My 08 C-14 is Surging really awful around 4-5K rpm & up. It was doing it at 9k then started doing it at 7K & now around 4K. It ran really Amazing one time/ one day after a fill-up with Costco Gas; I filled up on my way to work & after work, it ran the best she's EVER ran; EVER! It was a cooler evening but the symptoms came back the following days. I drained the tank, removed the fuel pump, cleaned the pump & screen of greenish Algae looking buildup. It improved slightly but was still surging so I installed a new pump, screen with fresh gas & it's still acting up. Next is to inspect the injector screens but I'm suspecting the secondary throttle actuator. I believe it's sticking or worn. I'll clean & lube the secondary throttle shaft & see if that helps because when I back off the throttle, she lunges forward.

Any additional suggestions or insight would be much appreciated.
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Offline maxtog

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Re: Severe Big & Surging on 08 Concours 14
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2019, 04:35:58 pm »
Sounds like a clogged fuel strainer causing fuel starvation.

My thought exactly based on that description he just made.

Quote
The screen is located in the fuel pump ass'y, which is inside the fuel tank. Not too awful to do an R&R but you will have to empty the tank and pull some fairings off before you can remove the tank and invert it. The pump is inside the tank and is installed and removed from the bottom.

But he says he replaced the pump and screen (which I assume means the filter was checked too).  I suppose it could STILL have a clog.  Maybe something in the lines?  Hmm.  His thoughts on the secondary throttles (butterflies) do kinda fit the symptoms, but I thought that would throw an error- doesn't the bike have a sensor to tell it how open they are?
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,  Tourmaster Flex II

Offline Poseidon

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Re: Severe Big & Surging on 08 Concours 14
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2019, 05:18:36 pm »
Besides the fuel filter, fuel injectors, and fuel lines, also check the vent for your fuel tank. Have you ran any fuel system cleaner thru it? I don’t believe 2008’s had them, but I’ll ask anyway, just in case. Does your bike have an evap canister? It would be located opposite (under right handle bar) of the small storage compartment under the left handle bar

Also, have you checked for a vacuum leak?
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Offline PH14

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Re: Severe Big & Surging on 08 Concours 14
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2019, 05:21:11 pm »
Thanks for clarifying the symptoms. That isn't really surging. I agree with fuel starvation. It sounds like what happens on a carbureted engine when the gas tank vent gets plugged.

Offline maxtog

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Re: Severe Big & Surging on 08 Concours 14
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2019, 05:29:55 pm »
Besides the fuel filter, fuel injectors, and fuel lines, also check the vent for your fuel tank.

Good one.  Although there has been speculation that the fuel pump could actually CRUSH the tank if the vent is plugged, this is a super easy test.... make sure the tank is less than full, ride it with the fuel cover popped open slightly...  If it is intermittent, ride and wait for it to start acting up, then pop the cover and continue riding (without turning off the engine) and see if behavior returns to normal.
Shoodaben (was Guhl) Mountain Runner ECU flash, Canyon Cages front/rear, Helibars risers, Phil's wedges, Grip Puppies, Sargent World seat-low & heated & pod, Muzzy lowering links, Soupy's stand, Nautilus air horn, Admore lightbar, Ronnie's highway pegs, front running lights, all LED, helmet locks, RAM Xgrip, Sena SMH10, Throttle Tamer, MRA X-Creen, PR4-GT, Scorpion EXO-T1200,  Tourmaster Flex II

Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Severe Big & Surging on 08 Concours 14
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2019, 06:16:29 am »
Yes, the secondary throttle has a position sensor and yes, it will generate an error if it cannot reach the position the ECU places it.

It is unlikely that a plugged vent would cause such severe fuel starvation because as already mentioned, the fuel pump would just crush the tank and keep going. But as you mentioned, a super-easy test is to ride the bike around with the fuel cap cracked and see if the problem disappears.

As far as replacing the fuel pump and screen, what was it replace with? Something uses I suspect. And if that pump were not taken apart, it is entirely probable that a clogged screen was exchanged for a different but still clogged screen. Not likely perhaps but possible.

It could be clogged fuel injectors but man would they have to be uber- clogged to actually stop the engine from producing even 1/4 of its potential power. Fuel injectors generally fail in two ways, neither of which will actually prevent the engine from running <reasonably> close to normal, at least at first glance. The two failure modes are 1) leaking injectors which are not much of a problem at speed and under load (more of an idle / starting problem) and 2) a dirty injector nozzle(s) that do not spray fuel but instead squirt a stream of fuel into the intake. Again, the engine will run, and fairly close to normal but low end smoothness, fuel economy, and overall running quality, especially at low throttle openings, suffers.

If the fuel pump, screen and pressure regulator have been changed, I would next give the pump assembly a volume and pressure test. Both are easy although the pressure test requires a relatively cheap gauge.

Brian

My thought exactly based on that description he just made.

But he says he replaced the pump and screen (which I assume means the filter was checked too).  I suppose it could STILL have a clog.  Maybe something in the lines?  Hmm.  His thoughts on the secondary throttles (butterflies) do kinda fit the symptoms, but I thought that would throw an error- doesn't the bike have a sensor to tell it how open they are?
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Offline speedracersworld

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Re: Severe Bog & Surging on 08 Concours 14
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2019, 08:13:46 am »
Thank you all for your input. The fuel pressure regulator is a suspect! I'll try all the suggestions. I have replaced the pump assembly with a higher volume one with new screen/ sock filter. There was Green Algae like deposit covering the sock. I'll do a pressure check. I'm thinking that the injector screens may have the same Algae/ bacteria clogging it. I added some Bellicide to my tank & Techron additive. I'll check the MAP Sensor and inlet/ intake. I replaced the Air Filter with a foam element so airflow isn't an issue.

If I feather the throttle, I can get the bike up to 90 plus but it takes a bit of time. Like a Honda Civic Hybrid. It's gotta be a Fuel Flow issue, I think.

Because it ran so well that one cool evening,  I'm wondering if it could be a heat induced electrical issue. I did install some heat blockers in the lower section of the fairings but I doubt that would cause the problem.

The vent isn't a problem here as there usually pressure built up in the tank from the Texas heat. I've never had a problem opening the gascao. Usually I can hear air seeping from the gas cap key flap. Will keep you all updated. Thanks again.
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Offline B.D.F.

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Re: Severe Bog & Surging on 08 Concours 14
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2019, 09:25:56 am »
Wow, I was not even aware that there is anything other than an OEM fuel pump ass'y that will fit in a C-14 but if you did replace the entire ass'y with something [non OEM] I am especially suspect of its output.

It is unlikely to be any type of electrical issue IMO because the ignition system is all independent (each of the four cylinders), and generally electrical issues are more ON and OFF than limiting in power / RPM. Hey, it is possible but that is not where I would start looking- again, the fuel pump assembly including the fuel pressure regulator (located inside at the top of the ass'y). Test output with a pressure gauge (usually 39 PSI but check the manual for the actual number), then a volume test- see how long it takes to pump some known volume, such as a quart.

I had this same problem on an Expedition once: it would start right up and idle but adding any throttle was a struggle. A quick volume check showed the pump's output was far short of the normal range and it was not subtle. The bad news is that it was a LOT easier to test than it is on a C-14 as there is a test valve in the fuel line under the hood, and the pump was easy to power-up through the fusebox, also under the hood.

Brian

Thank you all for your input. The fuel pressure regulator is a suspect! I'll try all the suggestions. I have replaced the pump assembly with a higher volume one with new screen/ sock filter. There was Green Algae like deposit covering the sock. I'll do a pressure check. I'm thinking that the injector screens may have the same Algae/ bacteria clogging it. I added some Bellicide to my tank & Techron additive. I'll check the MAP Sensor and inlet/ intake. I replaced the Air Filter with a foam element so airflow isn't an issue.

If I feather the throttle, I can get the bike up to 90 plus but it takes a bit of time. Like a Honda Civic Hybrid. It's gotta be a Fuel Flow issue, I think.

Because it ran so well that one cool evening,  I'm wondering if it could be a heat induced electrical issue. I did install some heat blockers in the lower section of the fairings but I doubt that would cause the problem.

The vent isn't a problem here as there usually pressure built up in the tank from the Texas heat. I've never had a problem opening the gascao. Usually I can hear air seeping from the gas cap key flap. Will keep you all updated. Thanks again.
Homo Sapiens Sapiens and just a tad of Neanderthal but it usually does not show....  My Private mail is blocked; it is not you, it is me, just like that dating partner said all those years ago. Please send an e-mail if you want to contact me privately.

KiPass keeping you up at night? Fuel gauge warning burning your retinas? Get unlimited peace and harmony here: www.incontrolne.com

Offline speedracersworld

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Re: Severe Bog & Surging on 08 Concours 14
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2019, 11:18:46 am »
Thanks Brian. I'm starting to suspect the Fuel Pressure Regulator inside the pump assembly since that's the one thing I didn't replace while I had it all apart. Seems all the 600cc & up Fuel Injected Kawasaki's take the same internal pump motor & pressure regulator so the volume & pressure must be the same. I have many 636 pump assemblies & just ordered a known good ZX14 Fuel Pump (Same part number 49040-0024) to rule out the pump/ pressure regulator. It's much easier than removing the TBs. The bike starts, idles and runs great until 4K so not getting as much as the demanded flow/ volume past that rpm. Will know for sure in a few days. :)
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Offline speedracersworld

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Re: Severe Bog & Surging on 08 Concours 14
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2019, 11:27:33 am »
This is the pump I installed. It was Identical in size, shape & fit as the Kawasaki OEM Part except Orange in color. Has all the correct O-rings also. Easy job!

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F292149435327
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Offline ginzburg

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Re: Severe Bog & Surging on 08 Concours 14
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2019, 12:12:30 pm »
I read about sort of similar symptoms with a bike cutting out at high RPMs. They said it was the throttle position sensor in that case. Maybe this is why you can feather the throttle and still get something out of it. The manual says that light loads are controlled by a vacuum sensor, then it switches to the throttle position sensor. Maybe it only throws a code if the sensor is completely open or shorted and that is why you don't get a code. I don't know how this one is made, but I would think heat could affect a potentiometer that is going out and that could be your heat related electrical problem.