Rostra cruise control problems and troubleshooting

[shaggs147]

Hi everyone and greetings from the UK!

After reading various posts all over the internet, including here, I decided to go ahead and fit a Rostra Cruise Control for my trip to Italy in 5 weeks. I imported the kit from Kartronix in the US via ebay.
I followed various guides from here, Murphs Kits, and Youtube, and the install seemed to go ok. I set the DIP switches, and carried out the diagnostic tests, which all passed - great!
I took the bike out and rode at various speeds, but no matter what I did, the cruise control just would not set and engage. I have the rocker style control switch with the ''on'' and ''set'' LED's. The set LED will not light up, so its acting as if the CC is not engaging, therefore not sending a set signal back to the control switch LED via the orange wire through a relay.
I have a feeling that the Rostra is faulty, but if anyone has had a similar experience and knows a solution then I'd really appreciate some advice.

Cheers everyone,

Mark

[B.D.F.]

No problem, we can walk you through this. And watch out, I know the guy who wrote the tutorial on Murph's site and he is a little shaky.... :-)

First of all, change switch #11 to the other way from the tutorial. That is an old version and has not been updated.

See if that cures your problem; I believe it will if your system passed the diagnostic tests including brake light and VSS pulse tests. If not, just post back here and we will sort it out as you folks say.    I have helped with dozens of these installs and everyone has been successful so I am quite sure we can get your CC running in less than five weeks; after all, we do not want you being embarrassed in front of Italians.... 

Brian

Hi everyone and greetings from the UK!

After reading various posts all over the internet, including here, I decided to go ahead and fit a Rostra Cruise Control for my trip to Italy in 5 weeks. I imported the kit from Kartronix in the US via ebay.
I followed various guides from here, Murphs Kits, and Youtube, and the install seemed to go ok. I set the DIP switches, and carried out the diagnostic tests, which all passed - great!
I took the bike out and rode at various speeds, but no matter what I did, the cruise control just would not set and engage. I have the rocker style control switch with the ''on'' and ''set'' LED's. The set LED will not light up, so its acting as if the CC is not engaging, therefore not sending a set signal back to the control switch LED via the orange wire through a relay.
I have a feeling that the Rostra is faulty, but if anyone has had a similar experience and knows a solution then I'd really appreciate some advice.

Cheers everyone,

Mark

[C14lvr]

One important thing to go back and check is how the brake relay was wired, and that you got the proper relay! There are 2 different types of relays- N/O & N/C... They both look identical, numbering of the posts and all. You must use a normally closed type relay.

Usually, the number one cause for the Rostra not engaging is the unit DOES NOT SEE GROUND.

Ya might check that, and check that the relay clicks when either brake is applied.
If it does, then confirm with a 12V tester that the relay is opening the ground when the brake is applied.

Ground loop through the relay should be closed until the brakes are applied, then it opens, and Rostra stops working and disengages.

If you have the type of switch that has both the power on and the "ENGAGED" light, it requires the same normally closed relay installed in that circuit as well.

If it passes diagnostic, but refuses to engage, this may be your problem.
HTH's, good luck! You will LOVE the Rostra on long trips when you get it going!
Can't take a long trip w/o mine!
Bob

[B.D.F.]

With all due respect Bob, I do not believe that is correct. Relays are all normally closed by nature but have normally open and normally closed contacts in the same relay. One can purchase a Normally Open relay only but one cannot purchase a Normally Closed relay only- that would be a five- wire relay, a standard, and would come with both NC and NO contacts so that either / both can be used.

As long as the relay being used has five (5) electrical contacts, it is the correct 'type' of relay (assuming of course it is a 12 volt relay, etc. but that would all be a given as long as the relay was purchased for automotive / vehicular use).

The world standard five (5) contacts are as follows:
30
85
86
87
87A

A four (4) pin relay uses the same contacts and performs the same function except the NC pin, #87A,  is missing. The pins are as follows:
30
85
86
87

As can be seen here, nothing bad will happen if one tries to use a four pin relay in place of a five pin relay other than it cannot be properly wired, and it will not work. I am not joking when I say this: what I mean is  that there is no harm in having the wrong relay as the pin numbers and functions are identical and world- wide in standard. For a Rostra CC install, a five pin relay is required.

I am just posting this as information others may be able to use, not to 'tweak your nose' or challenge you at all. No insult intended.

Brian

One important thing to go back and check is how the brake relay was wired, and that you got the proper relay! There are 2 different types of relays- N/O & N/C... They both look identical, numbering of the posts and all. You must use a normally closed type relay.

Usually, the number one cause for the Rostra not engaging is the unit DOES NOT SEE GROUND.

Ya might check that, and check that the relay clicks when either brake is applied.
If it does, then confirm with a 12V tester that the relay is opening the ground when the brake is applied.

Ground loop through the relay should be closed until the brakes are applied, then it opens, and Rostra stops working and disengages.

If you have the type of switch that has both the power on and the "ENGAGED" light, it requires the same normally closed relay installed in that circuit as well.

If it passes diagnostic, but refuses to engage, this may be your problem.
HTH's, good luck! You will LOVE the Rostra on long trips when you get it going!
Can't take a long trip w/o mine!
Bob

[C14lvr]

No problem Bro...

But I just went through this with my friend Tim's CC install.
I advised him to get his relay from Murph, but he instead bought one off of Ebay.
Looked right, numbered right... Worked exactly backward.

Started checking around locally... Everywhere. They all sold a N/O relay. When energized, it would close... Azz backwards.

Ordered the one from Murph that is the part number you list in your tutorial. Unenergized, it's closed. Energized it opens.

They look the same, but work the opposite.

That's just been my experience recently.

Let me also say, I never even thought about that until this happened! It delayed us 3 days from finishing his install, but thanks to Murph's fast response (as always!) we got it going.

With that said, I'll end with this... I never want to post anything that would mislead someone.
Not my intention...ever. But after 8 of these installs now, the Rostra NOT seeing ground has been a reoccurring issue if it doesn't work.

Just thought I'd throw that out there to him, since I ran into that situation recently.

But, I bow to your superior intellect, sir! When it comes to the Rostra, you be da man!

[Gsun]

Bookmarked this and a couple other threads - just ordered one from Murph!

[B.D.F.]

Good- it can be easy to ruffle feathers on the 'Net....

Please do not bow to me or anyone else- let us just discuss this (or any other) matter and perhaps we can come to a better understanding together than we would separately. I really want to know and especially, to spread the correct information whether I was right or wrong at the beginning of any discussion, and I am always happy to be corrected as that means that better information is being spread around.

You are quite correct in that the unit not being connected to a solid ground will absolutely prevent the CC from engaging, and this is a fairly common problem with Rostra installations. Your information was good, I was merely commenting on the relay specifically.

This is a generic mechanical drawing as well as schematic of a standard (ISO standard) relay.



All relays should be this way. The only variation is that some relays have a diode around the coil to prevent a fly-back voltage from being generated by the coil; this <may> be what you ran into and if so, then the coil needs to be wired with specific polarities on pins 85 and 86 and they cannot be reversed. This will be shown on the schematic printed on the relay body, and can be found using a standard VOM by reading the resistance across the coil in both directions; if there is a significant difference in readings, the relay has a diode and must be wired with the positive lead going to the pin on the relay that provided the greater resistance. But the relay behavior or logic is always the same; four pin relays are Normally Open while five pin relays are both Normally Open and Normally Closed. This is why I said earlier one cannot purchase a four pin, Normally Closed (NC) relay; instead a five pin relay must be used and the NO pin just left unattached if a NC relay is needed.

Over the years of the C-14 and Rostra CC installations, it really has become a sort of a group project. Quite a few people have contributed along the way and some very good ideas and methods have been contributed long after the initial installations started back in '07 or '08. So I encourage anyone and everyone to share info., notes, "watch out for's" as well as different methods of mounting components, attaching cables, etc., etc. As I said, your information about the unit not sensing ground is an excellent point and always a great place to start troubleshooting an installation that will not work. Thanks to you and everyone who has, and hopefully will continue. to add to the collective pot of Rostra wisdom.

Brian

No problem Bro...

But I just went through this with my friend Tim's CC install.
I advised him to get his relay from Murph, but he instead bought one off of Ebay.
Looked right, numbered right... Worked exactly backward.

Started checking around locally... Everywhere. They all sold a N/O relay. When energized, it would close... Azz backwards.

Ordered the one from Murph that is the part number you list in your tutorial. Unenergized, it's closed. Energized it opens.

They look the same, but work the opposite.

That's just been my experience recently.

Let me also say, I never even thought about that until this happened! It delayed us 3 days from finishing his install, but thanks to Murph's fast response (as always!) we got it going.

With that said, I'll end with this... I never want to post anything that would mislead someone.
Not my intention...ever. But after 8 of these installs now, the Rostra NOT seeing ground has been a reoccurring issue if it doesn't work.

Just thought I'd throw that out there to him, since I ran into that situation recently.

But, I bow to your superior intellect, sir! When it comes to the Rostra, you be da man!

[shaggs147]

A big thanks to everyone for taking time out to reply, and a great tutorial by the way Brian! I'm in work at the moment, but will check out all your points by tomorrow morning and get back to you. Really appreciate it, thanks everyone. 

[C14lvr]

Shaggs147,
If something is wrong with your Rostra unit, (not saying it can't happen...) it will be the first defective one I've heard of so far. The Rostras are very good units.

Very interested to hear what you figure out.

[B.D.F.]

There have been lots and lots of questions / problems during the installation of Rostra cruise control units on C-14's, and occasionally operational failures after the units are installed and working correctly. I thought I would start a thread about that very subject so that perhaps we can keep the Q&A sessions in one thread that anyone can reference in the future.

The question from another thread that got me thinking about creating this thread was: "As far as the CC goes, I havent had a chance to get into it yet. I was wondering about the switch as well. When I did the install, I was very thorough with sealing it up. I removes the silicone key pad from the cover and used silicone to seal it to the cover. Then once all was back together I sealed up the backside. Question.... I am getting a power light on the keypad as well as the engage light. So would this eliminate switch problems and also eliminate fuse problems?"

If a Rostra cruise control is used with an 'Engaged' light, and that light is being lit when the SET button is pressed, it means that all electrical connections throughout the bike are working correctly, including the switch. If the 'Engaged' light is lit and the cruise will NOT take over the throttle, it is a mechanical problem, most likely at the cable to throttle arm connection but possibly inside the Rostra actuator itself (although I have not heard of or seen this type of failure).

Brian

[maxtog]

Brian is not kidding about the "lots and lots of questions", and they constitute a large number of separate threads.  Threads of related interest that people should also examine include (but not limited to):

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=19256.0
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=7611
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=18655
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17695
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17835
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17801
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17670
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=18707
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=13539
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=17190
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=14141
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1675
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=1822
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=2252
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=14376
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=2855
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=10868
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=8805
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=841
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=7575
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=8324
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=7162
http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?topic=3457

What we probably need is an incorporated wiki page that consolidates a lot of that valuable info into one place.  If that doesn't work, I can always keep this thread "clean" by moving out any posts not by you, so you can keep this as the go-to/summary thread (if you want to do that, just let me know).

[VirginiaJim]

Working on it...

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?board=41.0

[shaggs147]

Just a quick question guys, should I be able to set the cruise control and get the green "set" LED to illuminate without riding the bike? It'll save some time doing test rides if I can get this sorted first.

[sailor_chic]

I would have to say no. I believe that the speed sensor need to have a signal sent to it, so the wheels need to be turning. Brian will be able to confirm or deny my minimal knowledge on this.

[B.D.F.]

Cool! I had not seen that before, unless it is something being done 'behind the curtain' until it is ready for unveiling.

Brian

Working on it...

http://www.zggtr.org/index.php?board=41.0

[B.D.F.]

Yeah, the wiki is great but I just thought a real, living and breathing thread where people could post might be even better in this case. That way instead of just presenting fixed things, there could be discussion, expansion of things that do not real well (read: were not explained well enough the first time) and so forth. Besides that, while many problems are common, each person sees a slightly different set of symptoms and often thinks it is not the same as problem number 11 from a list.

Anyway, just a thought that might be helpful to folks, and make it more likely that questions would be answered on the topic. Often when technical questions are put in, say, a beer tasting thread, the people who can answer the question may never read that thread in the first place.

Brian

Brian is not kidding about the "lots and lots of questions", and they constitute a large number of separate threads.  Threads of related interest that people should also examine include (but not limited to):

<snip>

What we probably need is an incorporated wiki page that consolidates a lot of that valuable info into one place.  If that doesn't work, I can always keep this thread "clean" by moving out any posts not by you, so you can keep this as the go-to/summary thread (if you want to do that, just let me know).

[shaggs147]

Ok thanks for the reply Nicole, I'll go and test the bike shortly.

Just carried out some checks again and all the diagnostic checks pass. It is wired as follows -

Red/Brown - Goes 12v positive when the "on" control switch is pressed.
Violet - Negative from Brake relay, switches 12v positive when brake is pulled.
Black - Negative
Yellow - Switches 12v positive when the "R/A" button is held down on switch assembly.
Brown - 12v Positive from ignition switch.
Grey - 5v square wave from Vss sensor.
Dark Green - Switches 12v positive when the "S/C" button is held down on switch assembly.
Dark Blue - Connected to ground (negative).
Light Green - I have this disconnected at the moment until I can get the CC working.
Orange - Connected to a relay coil to drive the "set" LED.

Switches set as follows -

 1,   2,   3,   4,   5,   6,   7,   8,   9,  10,  11,  12
off  off  on  on   on  on  off  off  off   on   off   off

I'll report back soon with the results of the test ride

[B.D.F.]

Yep, the Rostra needs a to sense a stream of pulses from the Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) at a minimum speed to engage. It won't work with the bike sitting still. On my bike, the minimum speed is about 20 MPH when the unit will engage.

Nicole, please do not dismiss your knowledge on this- you passed 'minimal' a while ago in my opinion. 

The Rostra can be tested without the bike moving by spinning the rear wheel while on the centerstand. However, I really do not like to recommend that method because the CC will not work correctly and it will jerk the throttle open and closed very quickly, making the bike pretty violent on the centerstand. Besides, if the unit passes all diagnostic steps, it will almost certainly work on the road so there is generally no need for the risky centerstand test.

Brian

I would have to say no. I believe that the speed sensor need to have a signal sent to it, so the wheels need to be turning. Brian will be able to confirm or deny my minimal knowledge on this.

[B.D.F.]

That all sounds great but how are you determining the brake relay is negative when it is off? It must be a low resistance path to ground; if the Rostra senses any appreciable resistance, it will not engage.

Brian

Ok thanks for the reply Nicole, I'll go and test the bike shortly.

Just carried out some checks again and all the diagnostic checks pass. It is wired as follows -

Red/Brown - Goes 12v positive when the "on" control switch is pressed.
Violet - Negative from Brake relay, switches 12v positive when brake is pulled.
Black - Negative
Yellow - Switches 12v positive when the "R/A" button is held down on switch assembly.
Brown - 12v Positive from ignition switch.
Grey - 5v square wave from Vss sensor.
Dark Green - Switches 12v positive when the "S/C" button is held down on switch assembly.
Dark Blue - Connected to ground (negative).
Light Green - I have this disconnected at the moment until I can get the CC working.
Orange - Connected to a relay coil to drive the "set" LED.

Switches set as follows -

 1,   2,   3,   4,   5,   6,   7,   8,   9,  10,  11,  12
off  off  on  on   on  on  off  off  off   on   off   off

I'll report back soon with the results of the test ride

[sailor_chic]

There have been lots and lots of questions / problems during the installation of Rostra cruise control units on C-14's, and occasionally operational failures after the units are installed and working correctly. I thought I would start a thread about that very subject so that perhaps we can keep the Q&A sessions in one thread that anyone can reference in the future.

The question from another thread that got me thinking about creating this thread was: "As far as the CC goes, I havent had a chance to get into it yet. I was wondering about the switch as well. When I did the install, I was very thorough with sealing it up. I removes the silicone key pad from the cover and used silicone to seal it to the cover. Then once all was back together I sealed up the backside. Question.... I am getting a power light on the keypad as well as the engage light. So would this eliminate switch problems and also eliminate fuse problems?"

If a Rostra cruise control is used with an 'Engaged' light, and that light is being lit when the SET button is pressed, it means that all electrical connections throughout the bike are working correctly, including the switch. If the 'Engaged' light is lit and the cruise will NOT take over the throttle, it is a mechanical problem, most likely at the cable to throttle arm connection but possibly inside the Rostra actuator itself (although I have not heard of or seen this type of failure).

Brian

I am very pleased to announce that my Rostra is once again working. Proudly I can say that my workmanship was not the cause of the problem. Instead it was this brass connector that attaches the cable end to the chain. I once again re-installed this connector and then scratched my head on how to keep it closed and prevent the problem from occurring again. Then I came up with the solution of soldering the ends of the brass connector closed. Hopefully this will keep working properly now, and interrupt a 1/4 cent piece of material to cause me discomfort on a long ride again. Let this be food for thought for anybody thinking of using these type of connectors that are included in the kit.